<p>Transcript: Ocean imaginaries&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Hi everyone, welcome and thank you very much for being here. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of this country and recognize their continuing connection to land, water and culture. We are on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation, and we pay our respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. Welcome to Sydney Ideas, the University of Sydney's flagship public talks program. I'm Helen Sullivan, your host for this evening's public conversation Ocean imaginaries. This event is being presented with the Sydney Environment Institute during Climate Action Week Sydney. We are here this evening to talk about the stories about sharks and other marine animals that have taken hold in the public imagination. We're also aware that we're here in the wake of the news of four shark incidents that happened in 48 hours earlier this year. And because of that, what we're discussing tonight is your idea, and because we're discussing your ideas about Australians oceans tonight, we want to do things a little bit differently. So whereas usually we might have the panel discussion on stage, I'd ask questions, then afterwards we'd take questions. We were really hoping to make this event more interactive and take your questions throughout. So we'll be starting with a couple of questions that were submitted at registration, and then I can ask some, we can take some from slido and see how things go. But we wanted it to be a safe space for people to ask questions about sharks, about the ocean in general, and other animals. Of course. In order for that to happen, the safety needs to work both ways. So we ask that you please do ask questions respectfully, we ask that you please do submit them via Slido. People have a lot of strong feelings about the ocean, but about sharks in particular, for very good reasons. You may be surprised by your own strong feelings about sharks, and so we just we want this to be a really vibrant discussion. We want it to be like a classroom, a kind of free class, where we get to just talk and walk out of here knowing more, understanding more, and with questions answered. So without further ado, let me introduce our speakers. Chris Pepin-Neff, to my immediate right is an Associate Professor in Public Policy, very well timed, thank you. In the Discipline of Government and International Relations, in the School of Social and Political Sciences. Their research interests include theories of the policy process, policy analysis, the role of emotions, moral panic agenda setting and comparative public policy. Vanessa Pirotta is one of Australia's most renowned Wildlife Scientists, pioneering innovative technologies to transform wildlife conservation across marine and terrestrial environments. This includes some studying of whale snot, which she probably doesn't want me to mention, because she has achieved many other things, but unfortunately that is stuck in my mind. A globally recognised science communicator, she is driven by a passion for making science accessible, influential and inclusive. Earning recognition is one of Australia, of the Australian Financial Review's Top 100 Women of Influence and Science in science and in technology, and a science and technology superstar of STEM. So as mentioned,</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>I didn't get a clap, that's fine.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>They were politely holding it</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>We'll get a bit later. I'll earn it.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>As mentioned, Chris and Vanessa were really keen to hear from all of you this evening. So let's start with a couple of the questions that were submitted when people registered for this event. The first one is, does the Australian Government have accurate data on white shark populations and bull shark populations?</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Do you want me to start?</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Yeah, go for it.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>So I'll just say very quickly. Helen, where do you work?&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>The BBC.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>The BBC? Oh, we could do a round of applause for the BBC. So my name is Chris. Thank you so much. My name is Chris Pepin-Neff. My pronouns are they/them and it's a real honour to be here today. Thank you Vanessa, thank you Helen, thank you Sydney Ideas and thank you Sydney Environment Institute. So the data is evolving, is probably the most diplomatic way to say pretty not good. So what we've, there's a few different studies that have come out recently about. So previous studies over the last 20 years, we're looking at really small populations of white sharks, for instance. So for about maybe 15, 20, years, the demographic data they had were from six sharks. So that was kind of where the data was coming from. And so now what we've been able to do, that Clark and others who Paul Butler and others here at New South Wales DPI, have have done genomic testing that's much more accurate, and it raises a bunch more questions about the population size. So for white sharks, for instance, it's sort of several thousand on either side of Australia. But you used to believe that the white shark population, for instance, was only on, the population on the east coast was only on the East Coast, and the population on the west coast was only on the West Coast, and Adelaide was kind of the middle line. We don't say that anymore. There's a lot of inbreeding, which actually raises a lot of questions. And this is one of the reasons why the genomic testing was so important, was because it basically revealed that it's a very fragile population. So you might say there are 4000 white sharks, but it's very fragile, so the potential for a cascade that could impact them is really quite significant. If I can say on the bull sharks very quickly, I might also just note that, you know, I work with Amy Smoothey. I've been out with DPI tagging bull sharks in Sydney Harbour, and the data on that is a little bit better. I don't, I wouldn't say that it's perfect, but it's better because they're doing the, you sort of go out at midnight and then, and then at 4am after you've hooked them, you put a receiver on the inside, and it's part of the listening stations that they're setting up now. So their ability to identify the population and track the population is really.. we've sort of done a really good job just recently, and because, can I make one other point? Sorry.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>Of course, of course.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>So white sharks are pelagic, which means they travel the whole ocean, so tracking them is much more difficult. Bull sharks have site fidelity, which means that the bull sharks that are in the Brisbane River in the winter for us or in the summer, come to Sydney Harbour, right? So that's the sort of similar population. So you can track that a little bit better, because they've got site fidelity, but the white sharks is much harder, because they're traveling the whole the whole ocean, okay?</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>And if I can add to that. Thank you so much, because you've, you've warmed up the crowd. Okay,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>I didn't get a clap. Oh, okay.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>What's really important is that there's a group of people sitting in front of us. We are very grateful for you being here, because we need to remember that Chris and I are representing an academic world. We are not government. We are sitting in this space where, we as scientists, we're curious, we want to learn more. Okay, and this is what's really important. So, when it comes to us and understanding humans, that is just as important as it is understanding these animals. But first and foremost, to continue your wonderful opening, it's really important, especially if you've been dragged along you don't know anything about sharks. This is for you. It's really important to know that there are different types of sharks. And for some people, you're probably like, this is really obvious, but I'm saying it so we all start on the same place. There are different types of sharks. Some sharks, like the white sharks, you're bang on. They will go here and then across to New Zealand, across the ditch come back around to Western Australia. They're, then there are some sharks, like the wobbegong. I could pick from a million sharks, right? They just like to hang out and not do that big thing. I just, I like it here, and I just want to swim and do my thing. And if there's something above... So I'm not anthropomorphising, but I just want you to know that there are different sharks in the ocean. Some have widespread distributions, some have localised. Bull sharks, for example, we know through the research is incredibly important, because they are one of those species, that can tolerate fresh water. Sharks need salt water, like dolphins and whales. Sometimes we see dolphins that have funny skin things., it's because it's been too much rain and they need more salt. So I just want you to know that we are dealing with here, unfortunately, we don't have all the answers. But we're going to do our best to try and start off from a good place, so that we both don't see it as one side and the other side. So we can collectively, can get really good information from this to go forward with the information we learned from you. But it's really important to know that different sharks do different things, and there's no one answer on how many sharks there are, because they don't just sit there waiting to be counted. They move. So unfortunately, we don't have the answers to how many sharks they are at present, but what we can do, like Chris said, is, do those small pockets of information, now we have $4.2 million of investment. That's going to help us learn way more. I'll leave it on that.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>Do we do we know what some of the biggest, there are many types of sharks, presumably threatened by many types of things. But do we know what some of the biggest threats are to sharks in Australian waters?</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Actually, like whales. So I'm just putting it out there. I'm not a shark scientist. So if you've got a problem with me, I'm not a shark scientist. What I do know is that things relating to sharks impact the animals I study, which are whales. Can everyone see Winston? He's entangled in a shark net. He's entangled in fishing gear that's not shark nets. He's entangled in all these other things, shark nets, any type of nets, ghost nets. Pollution in the ocean is a problem for both whales and sharks. The amount of fishing hooks we see sharks have in their mouth is so cruel. These poor things are swimming around this thing in their mouth. It's awful! Acoustic pollution. That's the sound of an underwater boat. And there are so many different impacts that sharks face, in all marine creatures face, I've just said a few. You want to name a few?</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>You were great. I mean, I'd say there's over 500 species of sharks, and we discover new ones all the time. The Greenland shark, for instance, is blind. It's over 400 years old. So wherever the what was going on in the world 400 years ago, the Greenland shark was there, and it's like the most... And you've got the goblin shark, and like, these amazing, hammerhead sharks are kind of my favourite shark. And so there's, there's one of the things that I always say is that when we talk about sharks, we, it's the context that Vanessa just said, right, that we're talking about over 500 species, and we've got about five that can be dangerous to people. And you're not going to hear me say sharks aren't dangerous. Go hug a shark, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there are five species that we need to be aware of that can absolutely be dangerous, and we need to, we need to be careful around. And then there's over 500 other species, like the wobbes. So 10% of all shark attacks in Australia are from wobbegongs.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Does everyone know what a wobbegong is?&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Right? They're on the bottom, and they got the things.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>How big?&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Oh, like, like that, but like, but they got the things. So wobbes are 10% of all shark attacks in Australia, because people step on them and then they turn around and bite them, right? They're sort of sitting there, like bottom dwelling. So there are lots of them and so when we talk about, you know, human shark interactions and things like that, it's just also important to note that, like some of them, are the wabbegongs that that get counted in this in this mass of shark stuff.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And so what are the five kinds? So, white,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>So, so we got bull sharks, white sharks, tiger sharks, oceanic white tips is probably the newer one that we don't talk about a lot. But any, if you've ever seen a movie where the boat the plane has crashed and now they're on the raft and they're floating, the shark that swam up was an oceanic white tip. That's the answer to the question. Even if, in the movie, it wasn't, it was.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Because they're curious?</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Because they're scavengers,</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>Okay.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And they're very they tend to be quite aggressive. And because, again, remember, when you're an apex predator, you were opportunistic. You've never met anything that can hurt you. That's how you become an apex predator, and you were at the apex of the thing, and so which is different slightly than some other situations where you've got bull sharks, which may be slightly lower on the food chain. But the point is just that, that I forgot what the question was.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>The other thing about this</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Can I hand off?</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>That we just need to set out, the first and foremost here, is because I think the biology helping understand, helping you understand so we can have this journey together is really helpful if you understand the biology of sharks as well. I'm not saying we need to be shark scientists, but some something that I really think we should just think about is okay, so. Sorry your props are really good. So I used to be a sea lion trainer, and they have whiskers. And if they're going to hold something with their their their whiskers, they do this, Chris, they come forward, and then that's how they, that's how they detect the world. If you're going to pick up something, like that, you would use your hands. For a shark, and I'm not misrepresenting them, but the way that they view or see things is not by using their pectoral flippers, it's by poking things right, or at least that's how they interact. So that's a fundamental difference to what we would do where we would. So the way that they explore the world, they've really good sense of smell, but they also will see things by being tactile as well. That's really important. That's not necessarily the, the role of JAWS or anything, that movie I hate, but it's, it's, that's how they experience the world. So if that is going to be a really big help to you as the audience, we just want to, we, we just, I just want you to set you all up in a way that you're understanding the biology as well, because it's really important. And we will go, go on</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>And for instance, so white sharks mature at the same age as humans. So they go through their teenage years, they don't mature until we do. So they don't start having babies till their 20s. So, for instance, remember I said it's really fragile ecosystem. So if they don't mature, if they mature and live about as long as we do then, then if you, if you killed a bunch of them, it would take 20 years to repopulate. So having that stable population is really important.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>So this brings me to the next question that was submitted with registration, which was, is culling bull sharks an option to make water safer?</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>Okay, this is a really, really good question, I'm sure, raise your hand if you want to hear the answer to this. Yeah. Okay, great. So my point being is that people, this is the most asked question, and I'm purely just stating facts, but it was Tony Abbott who brought this up. I'm not, I'm not showing any. I'm just saying he raised it recently. Remember what we said at the start of this presentation, sharks move. Sharks do different things. Also, we didn't even talk about environmental conditions, which we will talk about. How, in my opinion, and I've been very open about this, we're not informed to be even killing something that we don't know much about. I can't even tell you, as I'm not a shark scientist. I'm very open. But we don't even have the information on the numbers of bull sharks to be able to work out how many we need to kill. We're not informed to make that decision. And I am also respectful that other people in this room may feel that a shark cull is optimal. But from my personal opinion, I don't feel like we are informed. There is no silver bullet here to this situation. It's a very tricky one. This is why we all sitting here talking about it, because I want to understand, like Chris and Helen, we want to understand how you feel about this, so we can be informed, to communicate this to decision makers, so we can be reflective of what it is that you're concerned about. And also, I'd like to understand why people may feel that culling is an option, and we're all learning together. What was your comment on that, Chris?</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Oh, so I know the answer.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>What's the answer?&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>The answer is that culling doesn't work. So I've done this for 20 years. So for 20 years, governments have hired me and flown me around the world to do beach assessments for how to, in particular, how to reduce clusters of shark bites following bull shark attacks. That is what I do for a living, and I'm not a marine scientist either. I did my PhD, and I've got three degrees in the politics of shark attacks. I spent a year tagging great whites in South Africa. My friends are shark scientists, this is what I do for a living, but I'm not specifically on the biology side, but I am specifically on the protecting human side. So I put human life first in the work that I do, and if I thought that it would make you safer by killing bull sharks, I would tell you. Do I seem like someone who has a hard time expressing their opinion? So what I'm telling you, so I went to Reunion, and they were going to do a cull. Reunion Island off the coast of Madagascar, over by Mauritius in South Africa. And they did a cull, and it didn't make a difference. And then I went to, and then I worked with Egypt, and they had a cull, and it didn't make a difference. And the data out of Hawaii, they did a cull for 17 years, and it didn't make a difference. And the data out of New South Wales, and the shark nets, which are kind of culling nets, didn't make a difference. I have zero papers that show that culls work. There is no data. What I do have is papers that show that there are attractants like sewage and rainfall and cleaning fish on the jetty. I was hired by a local council in the harbour to go do a beach assessment. Lauren was there, my PhD student. Thank you, Lauren. We went a couple weeks ago. They're cleaning the fish off the jetty over the scuba divers, while they're checking the sea horses on the net. So the, the attractants, it's, I'm sorry. If it were the sharks, I would tell you it's the sharks. And I would say, I don't have a problem. Bull sharks are not protected. I have no problem telling you to kill the bull sharks if I thought it would help you. But I'm telling you that it's a distraction, and what we should be doing is banning fishing off the jetty, cleaning fish off the jetty, doing their like basic... putting in more enclosures, doing a listening station. There, I mean, I said to this council, which shall remain Mossman, that that they should put out an enclosure for Sunday mornings for nippers. Why don't you put out a temporary net? It's low tide, it's the harbour, it's a low energy beach. Put it out on Sunday mornings for nippers to go out at eight am the kids go out, have a good. There's a there's an enclosure net at Cottesloe Beach in WA, I did that. In 2012. So I think we should be using the ocean more, right? My position is not like the, we protect the sharks, and I'm pro shark first, and person second, and humans just need to not use the ocean. My position is the opposite. But there are smart ways to do it that are evidence based. And I'm just telling you that having done this research for 20 years, that that there is no evidence that a shark cull reduces the risk of a shark attack.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>And one final thing to that is that we, living in Sydney, we sometimes take the harbour for granted in terms of how lucky we are to live near the water. And one of the things I'm running is Wild Sydney Harbour, which is a citizen science program designed to connect community with our blue backyard. And what was incredible is that people, people weren't necessarily aware that we had bull sharks here over the summer and autumn period. Now, as a marine scientist, I know that I've gone out tagging sharks as well, but then I had to remember that that's not part of necessarily your every day. Some of you are working in banks. Some of you are earning way more money than marine scientists. Fabulous, but that's a problem that we as scientists need to address, we. That is something the communication of why we have an overlap of certain species in close proximity, is why we see these interactions with certain species.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And can I raise the point on this? So I was the subject matter expert for the KPMG report on the shark control program in Queensland, which was their big $88 million kill the sharks plan. And my contribution to that was whales, because everybody knows that Queensland is a humpback highway,</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta</strong></p> <p>Well, east coast.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff</strong></p> <p>When they're calving, sorry, right the East Coast. So in there they're calving, their birthing they're doing. There's just, there's a whole biodiversity thing trailing behind them, and they're swimming and getting caught in the nets. So where are the people? If the whales that are birthing and have little bitty, what is it called? Cubs?</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Calves.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>Calves, right. Are with them that, see. Then, then, where are the people? Because they're in the water too. And that was my contribution to that, to that part of the report, they were like, oh, we're going to keep the nets. And I'm like, the nets aren't your problem. The problem is you have an attractant in the water, and you've got a humpback highway that is attracting every shark, every Tiger Shark, all the all the different sharks to the area.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>So this is we might as well address the elephant in the room, shark nets, if we can. So it's really important, if we were to describe what a shark net is, and I can just see the vision on on the screen, a shark net is a piece of fishing gear. Essentially, it's gear, a net that goes across part of a beach. You can swim above or below it, and you can actually swim around it. So it's not actually a full net on the beach. I don't know if any people probably know that. It's kind of like a little band aid,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>Yeah, 150 metres wide,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And non target animals. This is all publicly available information, but non target animals get caught in there. My entire master's thesis was trying to was looking at the use of acoustic alarms to acoustically beep alert whale presence, and we found it didn't really work, at least in one type of scenario. There's a lot of noises in the ocean. I just really wanted the whales to go, there's a net there, I'm getting out. But unfortunately, every single year, we guarantee or put 50 bucks on it more even, there will be a whale entangled in shark nets this year. And when that happens, it's cruel and it's an awful thing. And I've spent time with the Sea World Foundation on learning how to disentangle whales. It's very dangerous. People have died doing it. It would be an amazing thing if we didn't have those there, but I understand that it's not going to be a simple fix. So as a scientist, trying to find ways around that, rather than push against is the way forward, because we know we still have ships in the ocean, ships hit and kill whales. What am I going to do? Point the finger at ships. We need to work together collectively to try and find solutions to these problems, and that's important.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>So I would say that shark nets are dangerous, and they should take them out now, because they're putting you in danger. So shark nets catch, it's a gill net. That's all it is. It's just an old fashioned fishing net that your grandfather used to catch fish. Just a gill net. A gill net catches the shark in the gill that's how it catches the shark. That's what the shark net is, and you put it out there, and now you've got the things that get caught in the net, right? And I'm, I could care less about the.. I apologise, I could care less about the turtles and the things. But when they get caught in the net, they send out these vibrations, and that vibration is heard by the local shark population, and it's like ringing the dinner bell. So shark nets in front of your beach is attracting sharks to a local area. And when DPI, New South Wales DPI, and we've seen it in Queensland, from the Department of Primary Industries, they have like, observers on the boats. When they go out, they check the nets every couple days or something. And when, when they pull in the net, they'll like, take a picture. Well, what kind of thing you think makes a shark bite? That's that big. 40% of the sharks that are caught in a shark net are caught on the inside of the net. They're feeding on the nets. We know that from DPI data, we know that from this. That data, the 40% data, was the New South Wales shark Scientific Committee in 1994. This is not new data. Shark nets don't work. I think they're dangerous. They also provide a false sense of security, if you maybe you think it's a full enclosure. But there's also, you know, it creates this idea that, like, the ocean is safe, right? Because the theory is right, all sharks are dangerous and all beaches are safe in the it's the opposite. Not all sharks are dangerous. Many, five and in, in the beach.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Beach is a dynamic ecosystem. So the beach is really never safe, right? And if you talk to any surf lifesaver, they would say, every 10 minutes, it's changing, it's evolving. We need to be careful when we go in the ocean, it's just this dynamic ecosystem. So my my narrative on shark nets is pretty again, I've got zero studies that show that shark nets prevent shark bites, and I've got five studies that say that gill nets attract sharks to an area.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>So what, so if there is a sort of overarching philosophy or way we can think about this, one message that, that people who love the ocean and who love people can take out into the world. What is that? How should we think about the ocean, our interactions with the ocean and, and sharks?&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>I can start. I think we all in this room, each have, well, there's only one of us, and there's no one else like you. There's no one else like me, and, you know, they say, be you, because everyone else is taken. But what I'm trying to get at here is that we all have a different connection to the ocean. My connection is different to yours, and you get what I'm trying to say, you all interact with the ocean in different ways, and we acknowledge that. So therefore we all are all coming together right now, in this very moment in Sydney to talk about that and that, you need to understand what it is and what how your connection is with the ocean, and make a decision on behalf of yourself and how you're going to interact. We can tell people, and we will touch on this, that the weather conditions recently were literally a perfect storm, but you still have the choice to go into the ocean if you wish, and there were people still in there. So you need to think about how you want to interact with the ocean and what you want to listen to. It's very important that you're aware of that connection. And I'm just going to leave it there, but I just want to say that there's no one blanket like you, like the ocean, like that, and you. It's, it's up to you and you were going to share that with us, or you don't just know that, maybe you should think about how you do interact with the ocean.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>It's, it's, this is such a good question. So in the United States, there was a, Ipsos did a poll, and it said, how afraid are your sharks? And the biggest majority of people who were afraid of sharks were on the East Coast, over by New York and the coast, and it was 52% of people were scared of sharks. 51% of people were most scared of sharks in Idaho. So everybody's got a different relationship with sharks,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Yeah,</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And it may. And you know, in.. So what I do for a living is when there's a shark bite, particularly when there's a cluster. I go to Ballina and I do a public survey, and I went to Perth, and I went to Reunion, and I went to Cape Town and I went to New Smyrna Beach in Florida. And my point in every community, sometimes, you know, communities that know the know the ocean, maybe a little bit better understand that it comes with risks and things like that. That doesn't mean that these things aren't tragedies. I'm not that's not the point I'm making. I'm saying that the ocean is a very dynamic environment, and I always say that we're looking at really three things. Shark activity, human activity, and environmental conditions. And the answer to every question, in case you're wondering, I'll just give you the headline, water temperature, water temperature, water temperature, water temperature, one more time, water temperature, water temperature, water temperature, if you want to know when there's a shark in the area, besides that it's salt water or fresh water, that it's what it's surface, water temperature is the motivating principle. They're moving toward the attractants, which is why, I'm sorry, it's not about the number of sharks, it's about the attractants and water temperature is the key motivating principle, because the bait fish are following the water temperature and the water column, and then the bull sharks, or the white sharks, or the oceanic white tips, or whatever it is is following that. And you can do it. I mean, you could do we're here talking about this on Climate Action Week. If I was telling a climate scientist how to get people's attention to climate change, I would say, do a shark attack forecast every day, and look at the water column, look at the water temperature.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Can I just interject? I have to. But krill also, if you don't know what krill are, they're in Antarctica, and humpback whales are reliant on krill. If we lose due to surface warming of the oceans, if we lose sea ice, we lose the ability of ice to reflect heat, the albedo effect, but also we lose habitat for keystone species, which is Antarctic krill, which these animals are reliant on. So just like sharks, the way in which we look at whale movements is very much dictated by where their prey are, and sometimes it takes the animal the size of a school bus or a 2.3 metre shark to tell us where the activity is. So it's also an opportunity for us as humans as well, to be kind of thinking about what are we seeing. And we always think we have to use all this tech and stuff to do this, but just simple observations as well can be quite powerful. And I know that there are people in this room. That are fishers, that are surfers, and honestly, they probably know a lot more about the conditions of Sydney than you, and I. I'm very honest about that, because you are living and breathing the environment. And I want to know that. I want you to know that we acknowledge that, or at least, I can't speak on behalf of you, but we acknowledge that you, you have awareness to this and that that interconnectivity and looking at how animals move in response to a changing world that we're all part of is incredibly important this narrative in understanding how we go forward for essentially looking at how we as humans interact with the ocean and the potential dictators that may increase our chances are likelihood of an overlap with one of these animals, which essentially is an overlap. And there are many overlaps. Fortunately, many are not negative, but some are. And so it's just a reminder that we are coexisting in a space and that there's no, I don't think, and I don't ever want to anthropomorphise, but I don't. I don't believe that a whale looks at a human and goes, that's a human. I don't think a shark does the same thing. So we just making sure we're not anthropomorphising it, but we're trying to understand it from multi levels here, so we can be informed to ask good questions, which is really important</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>In terms of temperature and and attractants in the water, and that sort of thing. Would it be? I mean, is it fair to say, I'm trying to think about kind of how you would teach kids about sharks, but also being safe in the ocean? I mean, would it be fair to say that it's almost you've got to learn to look out for this, the signs when, the signs of when sharks might be more likely to be around? Or are there so few that that wouldn't really be,</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Can I give you one? You want to see a shark, A go spear fishing. If you want to see a shark, goes spear fishing, that's what I always say, like not everything has the same amount of risk. The other thing is, the presence of dolphins means it's more likely there's a shark, not less,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>Sometimes,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>Sometimes, but the you would not agree that every flipper is out defending the human from,</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>I once had the Today Show. Go, well, if I see a dorsal fin at the beach, I'm going to think it's a shark. And I said to that interviewer, well, what if it's a dolphin? We're studying the dolphins of Sydney Harbour. It's never been done before, but, you know, this is like flipping it on why do we instantly think negative?</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>But my point is that sharks and dolphins eat the same thing. If you see a bait ball and you see dolphins and sharks there, whether it's at any of these different locations, the presence of dolphins in the water can increase the level of risk, not be the protection that you think it may be. And I think sometimes, when we think about the ocean there, we there's just a lot we're kind of myth busting today, like, like the ocean is a dynamic ecosystem. The presence of dolphins may increase the risk water temperature. So the easy answer, I'm sorry, there's no easy answers, but I can give you my little American sound bite, which is that bull sharks at 20 degrees celsius and more come toward the surface, and white sharks at 20 degrees and less come toward the surface. So those are white sharks don't like it really warm, and bull sharks really like it warm. So if you're just need a number to leave here with, today it's 20 degrees celsius.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And so could you have a kind of shark index? Like,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Yes!&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>If it's, it's it's rained, yeah. So there's likely be a lot of pollution in the water.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Somebody should call the Mossman City Council and see what my report looks like. This is what, this is what I did. Because one of the things that we also saw was, again, that so, because the you've got the again, it's human activity, shark activity, environmental conditions, so surface water temperature, rain. Are you fishing off the jetty, on top of the thing? Like if I went to Balmoral, and there and people are gutting the fish off the jetty. I think that would be a bad time to go in the water. And when, every time we talk about, and I'm just gonna say it, every time we talk about culling, there's still somebody gutting a fish over a jetty while the morning swimmers are doing their morning swim every day of the morning. So I just would like to do the things that will protect the people, and that's, that's really all I care about.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And education is part of that. So kind of like having a UV index, we could have a shark likelihood rating thing. That's a really, I think that's really practical. And then also we teach nippers in school. Why don't we teach shark safety as well. I don't think that's unreasonable. Plus, we could also sneak in some really cool biology for these students. And, and also, I know that we're dealing with generations. Can I just point out, you know, the first shark nets? What, 1937?&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Yes.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>That's a long time ago. And so I understand why some people have only ever known there to be shark nets, I get that. And so the idea from moving them would be the silliest, most ridiculous thing, right? It's, I understand that many of you have grown up with shark nets, so it's all about providing. I think we need to do a better job at this. And questions that have been asked part of Slido, which you're still able to do, are going to help inform how we work on changing education and at least making tools or providing you society with more information to be more informed. And I guess at the end of the day with information, we can all go and make good decisions, like after this tonight, you might go have dinner and go, those people are crazy, but I did learn this or, and then at the water cooler tomorrow. Did you know a baby shark is called a pup? I don't know, but there's,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>I know a baby whale is called a calf.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Job done, but you know, so you understand. So it's in... Gone are the days this, this kind of thing we're having right now would never happen. It would, you know, what we would do? We would go behind our dodgy desks and start, you know, putting the hacker thing. We're not hackers, but we would be writing about this and publish a paper in five years time. The findings back then showed this. This is, this is we're entering a new era of making sure scientists connect with the people who want to be informed as well.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>In the name of that, can you I'm asking this question in good faith. Do sharks attack on purpose?</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>You want me to start?&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Yeah,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Shark bites are a biological failure, so the moment the teeth touch a human, and it depends on different sharks react differently. But I can tell you that the amount of energy that it takes for, A, they don't know what we are. So we don't know we'll often see white sharks that treat jellyfish and seaweed the same way they bite people, like I've seen it. And so that's the first and so they don't know what we are, right? The second thing is, what was my first point? So the,</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>That it's a biological failure.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>That, that it's a biological failure. So the amount of energy, think you're an apex predator, just do it for me for 10 seconds. So your job is to maximise the benefit you gain and minimise the amount of energy you spend. That's your job as an apex predator. That's your only job. That's how you become the apex predator, right? By maximising what you gain and minimising what you lose. We are a biological failure. They do not get what they need from biting us. So they're, most shark bites our curiosity could be mistaken identity. Can also be defensiveness. They don't know what we are. So when we go in the water, we're really big. We're really big, we flop in the water. Everybody in town knows we're there, and it kind of draws them in. So when you end up in that, if you're an opportunistic predator, that's an apex predator that's never known anything that could harm it. You come and investigate. You're curious, maybe you're defensive, maybe you're there hunting, maybe you're doing something and then the human was there. So again, looking at it from that point of view, I think helps inform how we approach the ocean.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Sorry, it's more of a, and just echoing your words, it's an overlap in the same environment, and some of those interactions just nothing comes of it, and some of them are negative.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Wait, can I say at the same time that I always say, we're in the way, not in the menu? These are devastating. They're devastating for the individual, families. They're devastating for communities. I mean, with all due respect to, I mean, this is a terrible job. People are like, oh, I saw you in Sunrise. I'm like, that means something terrible has happened to someone. And I take that very seriously. When I say that my job is to try and educate the public, tell them the truth and keep them safe so I'm not gonna lie. I don't make any money. I mean, I have, I'm a professor. It's a good job. I'm not giving it up. But my point is that, like, there's no we're not being paid.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>There's no gain,</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>There's no cabal of shark scientists that are, you know, whatever like. And so all I can tell you is the truth. That's the only thing I've that I've got to say.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And touching on that, I've had people who come up to me, actually, in Canberra and Parliament House going, Oh, I saw you in the news talking about this. Our university tells us not to talk about sharks. And I really, that's... 2023 that happened, and that person said that to me. And the fact that people want to know about these things when they happen is a very much big reflection of how there is a thirst for knowledge, there is a way to go about it. One of my interviews with the Today Show, did the rounds with Karl Stefanovic and Sarah Abo, and it was an opportunity for me to essentially calm the narrative, because we need, at times when these things happen, not to sensationalise what's happened. We need to tell people that there is a support network like Bite Club. If you haven't heard of Bite Club, you need to Google it. The reason I know so much about that is because one of my friends had a negative interaction. She's okay, but Bite Club reached out to her, and was incredibly instrumental. When these things happen, it brings up trauma for many people. It's, people want answers, and someone like Chris and myself, who's not necessarily a shark scientist, but I'm very open about it, is there to provide information from an informed perspective, and that's really important, and that has really shown us recently just how important it is for us to be very active in this space, because people want to be informed, and we want to work together, to learn together in an environment that we've just spoken about that is so very much dynamic.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And if I can say, I mean, that was the reason we decided to do this event. So Vanessa and I were talking, I've been doing Sunrise, Vanessa been doing Today. We were like, Let's do a Town Hall. Let's answer questions. Let's, let's go. Let's engage in a conversation during a very difficult moment after an awfully terrible summer. And let's have that conversation. So and obviously, Dr Pirotta, you're a fantastic science communicator and public educator, and I just want to make sure I specifically acknowledge that you do tamp it down in the strength and the evidence base that you bring to it is really important. So every time you say, you know you do, whales, not sharks, I want to make sure that we're acknowledging that you're a tremendous educator for the public.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Thank you. That's very kind. And likewise, we need to remember that we are all acting in service to others, and that's a very important message. I'm aware that there's questions?</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>I will say so, from Slido, we've got the sort of top most voted for question is one asking whether a cloudy water index would be good as a guide for safe or dangerous beaches? So it sounds like there's appetite for for an index of some kind. But the second is, what of all of the kind of gadgets that you can buy, shark repellent, magnets or wetsuits with stripes? What is, what is the most effective if you're a surfer, or if you're if you swim in the mornings, kind of across the bay. Is there any evidence for what works the best?&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Are you looking for a silver bullet?</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>No.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>I mean, I'm gonna say the first thing is water temperature, and I'm gonna say the second thing is water temperature.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Okay.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Can you buy that?</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>But what I'd like to also add is that the amount of, of snake oil in the shark universe of people who've got the solution the silver bullet that Vanessa keeps saying doesn't exist. I'm telling you it doesn't exist. So there are some electronic shark deterrents. Carmen is here, and she's doing her PhD in the role of electronic shark determinants. I've got two PhD students. They're both here. Can you just do a quick wave my students? Thank you. Amazing. And so she's looking at that. So people are looking at this. Drones are, in my opinion, the best, because the with the AI technology, so sharks don't have water bladders, so you can't do sonar to detect it at a local beach, so you got to kind of go up above it with the drone, and with new AI technology to be able to see, like the outline. Again, it's not perfect, because you've got to have the right shark at the right surface with the right sunlight and the right wind and no white caps and all of that. But having said that, if you were to ask me the thing I'm most excited about at the moment, it's drone technology, because the AI thing is just a game changer.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>But yes, so yeah, there's been, and actually there's been a few companies that have reached out to me. I don't know if you've had it. Vanessa, we're trying to do this thing. Can we put you as an ambassador? Of course, you can't. That is just not what happens. I, it just. So just like the ocean, take everything with a grain of salt.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>We,</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>You're going to patent that one. That's a title of the book?</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>We've got a question here, which is about the sort of state of shark nets at the moment. So does the government know that shark nets are dangerous for shark populations, and have they developed plans to phase them out? So is it true? So is it true? So it's only Australia and South Africa that still use them. Is that the case?&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Australia and South Africa there? There are other things that other places do that are a little bit similar, but those two devices only South Africa and in Australia,</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And they've been phased out. They weren't, they did, used to get used more widely, but they've been phased out. And are we going to phase them out. Do you know?</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>So we're not. There's no plans that I'm aware of to phase them out. There was a, because of endangered sea turtles.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>Leatherback turtles.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>They do take them out a month, March 31 is when the nets will come out this year. So today's March, my birthday is on Saturday, in case anybody wants to come. So March 31 the nets will come out of New South Wales, because it's the end of, it's an end of the season, and then you've got that, and then you've got whaling season and things like that. So, so that's that. But in Queens, Queensland, sorry, they're in all the time, they never take the nets out. And I think that's wild,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Yeah. So obviously, for me as a whale scientist. Nets are a big challenge because we still see whales entangled and fishing in the nets, and they will probably remain but also, I just want to let you know that there's two things you're probably thinking that is happening here. Government is incredibly important. They have an important role in this. So I want to just acknowledge that the government service is incredibly important for both you and I and all of us here. I don't work for the government, I'm just saying, but so much of our bull shark research is one of the longest tagging bull shark research projects, run by Dr Amy Smoothey and Victor Peddemors. He's South African. I had said like that. And that is incredibly important, that is the government doing government led research. That's going to be fundamental to each and every one of us. That's my point that I want to make number one, and then number two. We actually do need the media to share information, but we are trying to work with the media to share that information appropriately. So don't think that we're pointing the fingers here. We're using it to our advantage where, if people are going to say, so is that shark going to come look at it, predating, look at it, doing it, lurking. That's fine, use that word, but I just know that. I'll rephrase what they're saying to address that, because we're trying to rewrite how we view sharks in society. But we're at the same time, we are under, trying to understand these creatures in a changing world. So it's not easy. So if we all know this that we're working together, scientists, government, stakeholders, councils, it's a collective effort, but the science is going to be the fundamental, important thing that will give us important information that we can all work off together.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And if I can note just one thing, I mean, because we mentioned shark nets went in 1937 the first shark net went in at Coogee in 1922. It was a steel net that they had set as a wire. They put a jetty out in the middle, like a dock in the middle of Coogee and strung it across the side because there had been a very terrible spate of shark bites, which were mostly because the open sewage was going in the 1920s and 30s. Anybody who was in Sydney in that time knows that it was the the water was full of sewage. Anyway, the point is that, that a stiff wind came, blew it down. It washes ashore. Everybody freaked out like while they were at the cutting ceremony. So they put the steel net in, back in in 1929 and they put the steel net up, and it's going to stay there till 1946 until World War Two, when steel.. they couldn't replace the net, because we were in the middle of World War Two, so they had this steel net. So we talked about Australia's relationship with the ocean, and it is important to note that during that period between 1922 and let's say 1937. Do you know what a shark attack was called? It was called a shark accident. So they were, it was seen as a beach accident, a shark accident. And it was kind of like hazards that happened, like lightning strikes and bad, like very again, terrible and tragic, but not intentional. So the language has changed, and it can change again. It's not an impossibility, and that's why having these kinds of conversations is so encouraging.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Chris, here's a question for you. You've been very clear about not swimming in Sydney Harbour at all in the past. Can you expand on the difference between the harbour and the ocean? Think I think about that a lot when I'm with my kid, and...</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>So I'm going to use a really, so can I just use the four sites I looked at in Mossman City Council? They're going to kill me. So I looked at Balmoral baths. I looked at the enclosed, the beach, and then the enclosure. And then I went, what was it called Clifton Gardens and looked at that. So Clifton Gardens, nobody should be swimming outside the enclosure of Clifton Gardens. That is a hot spot, that is SIMS is there, the Sydney Institute for Marine Science, that is a dynamic ecosystem. Nobody should be swimming outside that, in my opinion. And I said that in the report, because I'm shy like that. And so, am I answering the question?</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>Yeah, absolutely. So, well, the difference between the harbour and the ocean?</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Oh, yeah, yeah. So harbour, what you'll often see is that ocean beaches are like high energy beaches, big waves, lots of seaweed, and there's lots of different stuff that's going on, and sharks move through there differently, and there's lots of stuff going on. The harbour is just a lot I mean you do, well, you're gonna do the harbour, but it's except for Clifton Gardens. I mean, when I was at Clifton Gardens, I was like, nobody should be going in the water outside the enclosure, didn't I? I was like, in there. I mean, so I guess my point is that you we might think that it's a low energy beach, but that doesn't mean that what's going on below the water isn't high energy activity, right? So we just need to be mindful of these things. So I would use high energy, low energy would be the way I would talk about harbour beach versus ocean beach.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And is one more, sorry if it's a stupid question, but is one more dangerous than the other? Harbour is more dangerous?</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>I don't think that there's an answer to that,</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Or risky?</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>It's because it's so many variables. What time are you going to what when you asking that question,</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>The water temperature,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>What's the water, yeah.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>Sorry, broken record. Sorry.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>It's different, because, the way I personally, after recent events have personally been a bit rattled myself, because it was only the sixth of January, I was free diving in the harbor with gray nurse sharks. And I was really enjoying it. I really loved it. Diving down and just seeing these sharks, just looking at me, going... some of them. And I noticed there was a lot of people there, and then when they left, the sharks were more relaxed. This is a gray nurse shark. It's, it's not another type of it's, you know, so it's a different species we're talking about. And after what's happened, I personally, I am changing my behaviour as well. So don't think that we're standing up here and we're sitting up here and we are not rattled. It makes me think every time, every time I go for a wakeboard or a water ski, I can't explain it, and I know statistically, the chances of interacting with these creatures are quite low. They really are like honestly, but I can't help but think the moment I'm about to be pulled up from the boat, I, for some reason, I think about sharks, okay? And I don't necessarily want to be thinking like that, but maybe it's because I understand that I'm not in my safe space. I'm very vulnerable and and that's what happens. So I'm just sharing that with you, because the way this is also altering the way I interact with the harbour as well. I have young kids. I just want to make sure that we go forward with an understanding of we've got to do more science, and we need to be better at communicating the information that we get and update that. But that needs investment. And the great thing is acknowledging the government has invested $4.2 million to bull shark research, that is great. But why does it have to take terrible incidences like this? I mean, I'm a whale scientist in Australia who still hasn't got a permanent position at a institution, and I'm talking internationally around the world, how the how does it happen? Marine Science in Australia is so poorly funded, it's disgusting. And so why does it take these bad events for us to want to learn more? We should be getting ahead of the game and asking these questions now, because we're all consumers of the harbour, and that's exactly again, Wild Sydney Harbour. I came from Canberra, moved up here to do my PhD and Masters. I'm like, wow. People don't know that there's dolphins in the harbour. Have we studied them? No, we don't even know. We just started a dolphin catalog working out if that's Jack or Jenny by the dorsal fin.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>If I can make two quick notes, they're just two random thoughts, which is, the first is one of the recommendations to Mossman City Council was that you should be swimming in pairs. If you're swimming in the outside the enclosure, you should be swimming in pairs, in my opinion. And the second note is that 8% of shark attacks happen getting in or out of the boat. So it's a reason, but it's lower than the rate of a wobbegong. But 8% feels like a lot. And I was in South Africa, in Fish Hoek and in False Bay, and I was on the wrong side of a scuba trip, and I was about 300 metres from the boat and had to surface, and I was swimming with white sharks, and had to surface and swim over them. And that 8% felt like an awfully big number. I started, I'm like, all like, I'm all like, Oh, you've got three degrees, you know, you're you can, you can do this. And the closer I got to the boat, the louder I started screaming, like, put down the ladder, put down the ladder, put down the ladder. Like,&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Yeah, it's real! It's so real.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>8% was a very big number, like, so this is really serious stuff. And again, I would say, and I think Vanessa said this really, really well, that none of this, these are human tragedies, and it's we take it very personal. These the recommendations, the suggestions. This is not a statistic for us.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>It's not.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>This is people's lives. I'm, we, it is really important that they're never a statistic and that we're doing everything we can. And that's one of the reasons why I want more enclosures. I would love to see some of this, 4.2 million, go to the enclosures, which was also a recommendation of Mossman, and sorry, they're really going to kill me, but the but I also,</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>Enclosures being sorry, sort of metal bar. Those metal bars that go down,</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>There were a few different ways you can do them. So if anyone is at Marina Way the new one at Barangaroo, that's kind of what they have. They've got some or if you're at Nielsen Park or for Red Leaf Beach, they could be, but they're in all the time because it's a low energy beach, which means that there's not a lot of big waves, there's not a lot of seaweed to kind of kill to bring it down. You still need to repair it if there's a big storm. But then there's this, this technology out of Muizenberg and Fish Hoek where you put out a temporary net during low tide. I said this to Coogee, and I said it to Bondi. The feedback from the Bondi City Council was from the sustainability officer, was that the swell at Bondi is just too big. It's not low energy enough. But if you did low tide on Sunday mornings at Coogee, you could do a nippers thing and make it just provide a little bit extra security for people, and I think that's part of the conversation we're trying to have.</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>The other thing with your questions, I just want to acknowledge that we have surfers in the room.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Yeah. So one,</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta</strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>We have spear fishers. Any spear fishers in this room? Okay, one of the spear fishers is a student I teach. Great. And then surfers, surfers in the room. Okay, yep, okay. And also, I just want to, you know again, echo, thank you for coming, because, want to hear from you too.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>Well, this is the next question perfect to ask. So as a regular surfer, it is clear that in the last 30 years, there has never been a summer like this one, with so many bull sharks and so many aggressive interactions. Do you think this is a one year aberration or the new normal?</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>That's a good question. That is a really good question. And so I just want to jump in here and acknowledge that there's a lot of merit in what surfers see. You're in the ocean. I'm just sorry, because I know you're a surfer. Surfer, you see changes, and if you've been surfing in the same place over time, you're creating a catalog of information. I work with the Gamay Rangers, the Indigenous ranges in Gamay, Botany Bay, and I speak to their elders. They've seen things and how things have changed with the dolphins, for example, in Buriburi, the humpback whale. It is so important to acknowledge that there have been changes and our world, as we know, with water temperature, it is getting warmer, we are also more connected than ever before, which means if we see something, we will tell people about it. So for example, last Saturday off Bateman's Bay, people saw killer whales. That would never have happened if social media wasn't around and someone went, Vanessa, are these killer whales? And I go, Yes, oh my god. So we are connected in more ways than ever before, which means our capacity for telling stories and documenting things is much better. There's greater effort. So there are a number of things going on. I just want to point out that we're also becoming we are more accessible than ever. The science is being shared on news, articles, social media, what people are seeing there's now a surf camp. I know there's probably been surf camps for a while, but back 30 years ago, was there a surf camp? These are the kind of things I just want to bring to our attention. There probably is, there's probably more people. And I don't know because I'm not informed, but are there more sharks? I don't know because we don't have the data on that.</p> <p><strong>Chris Pepin-Neff&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>I want to say thank you so much to Chris and to Vanessa. Thank you for doing this. If you're interested in more community led events,</p> <p><strong>Vanessa Pirotta&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></p> <p>And thank you for coming. Helen, I just, I just want to, if you don't mind me butting in. We are very grateful for your time.</p> <p><strong>Helen Sullivan&nbsp;</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>Oh thank you very much. It was a pleasure to be here. Thank you all very much.</p>