“If you’re going to have a breakdown, try not to have it in a top secret secure naval Dockyard.”
You might know Alastair Campbell as the formidable former press secretary of British prime minister Tony Blair and co-host of popular podcast The Rest is Politics.
But back in 1996, when Alastair was a high-flying tabloid journalist, his mind suddenly unravelled. “I was hearing voices and seeing things that weren’t there.”
Alastair thought his breakdown would spell the end of both his marriage and his career. But these days, he sees it as the best thing to ever happen to him. He offers candid insights into his struggles with addiction and depression.
Alastair also takes you inside 10 Downing Street at some critical moments in history, such as the death of Princess Diana, and the controversy over the Iraq War. “Deep down, I wish it never happened. But at the same time, I can still defend the decisions that Tony Blair made at the time.”
You’ll hear Alastair’s take on what’s gone wrong in politics and how to fix it. Plus, what could happen to democracy if Donald Trump is re-elected as US President.
Mark Scott 00:01
This podcast is recorded at the University of Sydney's Camperdown campus on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. They've been discovering and sharing knowledge here for 10s of 1000s of years. I pay my respects to Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. When Alastair Campbell was just 28, he got a dream promotion. He was news editor at a leading British tabloid. High pressure, high stress. He loved it. And he was at the absolute top of his game. He was covering the biggest stories in the UK. But then, suddenly, he found himself in the middle of a park in Scotland having a psychotic breakdown. He thought it was the end of his career. He thought it was the end of his marriage.
Alastair Campbell 01:03
Then I was hearing voices. I was seeing things that weren't there.
Mark Scott 01:08
But then Alastair Campbell went on to become a formidable presence in UK politics. Right hand man to Tony Blair as Press Secretary. He was a key player in important moments in 20th century history; the end of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, the death of Diana, and the Iraq War.
Alastair Campbell 0:27
Deep down, I wish it never happened. But at the same time, I can still defend the decisions that Tony Blair made at the time.
Mark Scott 01:35
But all the while behind the scenes, you struggled with depression.
Alastair Campbell 01:39
Feel very, very sad, but is worse than sad is like, I know I'm alive. But I feel dead.
Mark Scott 01:49
Alastair’s now a mental health advocate, an author, and a co-host of the hugely successful podcast The Rest is Politics. I'm Mark Scott, the Vice Chancellor of The University of Sydney, and this is The Solutionists. Alastair, welcome. Take me back, take me back to the 1980s. You're working at The Mirror newspaper, and then at The Today newspaper ,climbing the ranks. Reflect on those times, what was it like to be a journo in that tabloid era?
Alastair Campbell 02:18
Well, I loved it actually, I think the great thing about being a journalist in any era is that your job is really just to kind of ask people questions and have conversations. And I used to think there was a story in anybody, and there was. It was pretty wild. It was actually quite a friendly place. Even though there's a lot of backstabbing, in terms of between newspapers. Within the newspaper, it was a sense of a team. But it wasn't, it was kind of defining for me because I, as you say, I was a bit of a highflyer and then I suddenly crashed and burned, and I thought it was all over. But I think one of the things I've always had is a sense of curiosity. And I think that's what journalism is about. Really, you got to be curious about the world.
Mark Scott 02:57
We've referenced 1986, the year you're on the trail of Neil Kinnock, the UK Labour leader, you're in a high-pressure job, and it all boils over. Tell us what happened.
Alastair Campbell 03:08
Well, the day started in a hotel room where - I'd gone to the hotel because Fiona, my partner, and I had fallen out. I'd been drinking all day. And I ended up in the hotel, emptied the minibar. And I woke up, kind of, in my own vomit, basically. But I had to get to Scotland because Neil Kinnock was speaking at the Scottish Labour Party Conference. So, I got to Heathrow, bought a new suit, bought a new shirt, bought a new tie. Went to the gents and sort of washed myself and got sorted out. And then just as the day wore on, I felt weirder and weirder and weirder, really wired. I think the, the moment when I knew it was going really a bit crazy. I hired a car. And I was driving to this place, and I got in this roundabout, and I couldn't get off the roundabout. I was going around hundreds of times, and I just couldn't turn off the roundabout. Eventually I did. I went to this place. I dumped the car. IIf you're gonna have a breakdown, try not to have it in a top secret secure naval dockyard, right? But I went into this naval base, and I went through the entrance and I said, “Listen, that's my car out there. I can't drive anymore. Here's the keys. Here's the number.” I think they must have thought it was a weird espionage operation, right? Anyway, so I just dumped the car. I then got a taxi. I'd lost Neil Kinnock by now he'd moved on. So, I'm now panicking. And then I started to see things, I'm not quite sure what's real, what's not. And then by the end of the day, I was having a full-blown psychotic breakdown. I was hearing voices. I was seeing things that weren't there. Some of them were there, but you couldn't work out what was real and what wasn't. And eventually I got arrested. I was I was basically, I was empty my pockets. I was emptying this bag that - I think I was about to take my clothes off. And these two policemen, plainclothes who were Special Branch looking after Neil. They came up and said, “Listen, are you alright?” And I said “I don’t think I think I am.” You know, and they took me away. I look, I look back now it’s the best thing that ever happened to me.
Mark Scott 05:07
Why is that?
Alastair Campbell 05:09
Because I sorted myself out afterwards. I rebuilt myself. I did think my life was over, I thought “I'm finished in my career.” I thought “Fiona's gonna leave me.” In fact, the next day she and her dad flew up, and it was obvious he wasn't gonna leave me. So, I kind of understood that, I couldn't blow that again. I stopped drinking. I didn't touch alcohol for the next 13 years. And, and I rebuilt myself. And I just think everything I've done since then, all this stuff that has been difficult, like, you know, working in government, running campaigns, taking a lot of crap from the media, all that stuff, I don't think I could have done it without that experience. Because he gave me this yardstick. It just doesn't, it didn't matter to me that people were saying all sorts of stuff because I thought, “Listen, I've had worse than this.”
Mark Scott 05:54
And is coming back from that the hardest thing you've ever had to do?
Alastair Campbell 6:03
I don’t know about that. Funnily enough - you know, as you asked the question, I think the hardest thing I ever had to do was many years later on, I saw my son going through something very similar. Because I felt with that, that even though I'd been through a similar experience, I just felt I wasn't handling it well. So, that was hard. Watching your son kind of, descend into alcoholism was really hard. He's 11 years dry now. So, we kind of got through it. But that was hard. And then I think, I didn't find it hard at the time because I had this, and look, I know Australians love their cricket - I had this thing where I was counting every day as a run. And at the end of the day, I was climbing into bed, and saying “It’s another, another it's another run there. He’s on 6418.” I was literally counting the days. And it was just like, I dunno, once I'd made the switch in my mind, “I'm gonna sort myself out.” I didn't find it that difficult. I didn't find stopping drinking as difficult as I thought I would. A lot of people find that really hard. And then the next thing that happened was that essentially, I realised that the alcohol and the work, were probably both addictions that I was using to cover up the reasons for the addictions, which was the depression. And I didn't really get that fixed until after I left Downing Street to be honest. Because I didn't, I had to convince myself I've done all the hard yards by stopping drinking, and that was that was me fixed.
Mark Scott 07:29
But there was more work to be done. Let's talk about getting into politics. Because you know, once you stopped drinking, your career flourished again, you ended up political editor of a newspaper, and then you made the decision to move into politics. I've heard many journalists talk about ‘moving to the dark side’. How tough a decision was that to you to leave journalism to join politics in 1994?
Alastair Campbell 07:52
Leaving journalism wasn’t that tough because I mean, look, if I hadn't had the offer, if Tony Blair hadn’t said to me, “I want you to come work for me” I probably would have carried on being a journalist. But I was getting a bit tired of journalism. Too much, too much of the stuff I was doing was coming around again.
Mark Scott 08:06
You'd seen it all before.
Alastair Campbell 08:08
Well, it just felt quite repetitive and, and I think also, I was conscious of the fact that the media landscape was changing. I think for the worse. This whole kind of you know, the, the ‘Murdoch-isation’ of our press – well tht had already happened but I think once, once he got into television as well, I think our media became a pretty bad place. And so, I didn't find it that hard. But, but I actually, I said no, for a month. Tony Blair asked me repeatedly, and I said “No, I'm not going to do it.” and the main reason I said no, was partly because of the breakdown. I thought, “Well, I'll you know, I've cracked up before and this is going to be way worse pressure than being a journalist.” But also Fiona, my partner, my parents, Neil Kinnock, all saying “Don't do it. Don't do it.” And there was something in me, and I sort of knew I would do it when he asked me, but I took a long time to answer.
Mark Scott 08:52
Took a while to dance around, to finally say yes. You know, you speak very openly about your, your breakdown. You, you, you talk about, you know, being worried, would, would things be triggered again, was the fact that you'd had that experience and that experience in really quite a public way, was that an issue in taking a job that led you to Downing Street? Were you as open about it there?
Alastair Campbell 09:13
I was, yeah, and actually, I think it could have been an issue. But when, I remember when, Tony, we were on holiday in France, and I'd said to Tony, “Okay, I'm gonna think about over a holiday. Just don't pester me. I'm gonna think about it.” So, we went off on holiday, as it happens, with the Kinnocks. And it's amazing how the same people weave in and out of your life. And so, we're on holiday in France, and I get a phone call from Tony saying, “Oh, we're only five hours away. We're gonna, we’ll pop in tomorrow and see you.” And of course, he came to try and talk me into doing the job, which I did. And I said, Tony, “I want to go through everything that I've done in my past that's happened to be in my past that could become a problem. Okay?” So, I went through all sorts of stuff. The fact that I'd written pornography, the fact that I used to get involved in fights at university, nearly got kicked out, all sorts of stuff. And then the breakdown. And I told him in detail. I said, “Look.”
Mark Scott 10:04
We’re you laying on one and then another? Well, if that that doesn't throw you let me -
Alastair Campbell 10:07
Yeah, here's another. Here's another one. I'm thinking several things, the main thing I'm thinking is, “Is there enough kind of stuff in here that the media decided to get into it.” And he thinks “This is just too tricky.” So, I just told, laid it all out in the light. And I told him about the breakdown, and I was describing it in detail, I remember there's this bit where I was saying to him - “So, at one point, my brain is exploding. I've got this inside my head feels like a glass, sort of building and it’s shattering. And I'm covering my face on my hands, because I can't work out why there's no blood, because inside, there's all this glass shattering. And then suddenly, Elvis Presley starts singing, and there's a bit of ABBA. And Fiona starts shouting at me. And then there's an argument going on in the office.” And he was looking at me, like, he really did look, like quite worried. But then he said, “Well that’s alright. I'm not bothered if you're not bothered.” And I said, “What if, what if I'm bothered?” he said, “I'm still not bothered.” So, and I will say what I'm talking about this, leadership in employment is so important. Yeah. You know, because he could easily have though "This is a bit tricky.”
Mark Scott 11:08
But I’ve often thought when it comes to recruitment, that it's really just a great act of trust, isn't it? You're really trusting. And why do you think he trusted you when you lay all those stories in front of him?
Alastair Campbell 11:18
I think he, because he knew me quite well. And he thought “What I've seen in this guy, I think I need it.” And he said, in fact, in that time in France, he said, “Look, you know, this is gonna be really tough. And I've got loads of good people who are very good at tactics but I think you've got a very strategic mind. And that's why I need I need people with strategic minds.” But I think I think also there's, there is, there is a skill, I think in, in recruitment, and in leadership, which is about being able genuinely to assess people's character, when there might be a lot of noise around them, and other people might have judgement. I think, I think Tony did have a very good, I mean, the team that we built was pretty impressive. And I think he had a really good sense of what people's qualities were and, and how enduring they could be.
Mark Scott 12:06
An, so you work with him. He wins government. How do you find the pressure that you were worried about, you know, when you work in the Prime Minister's office in such a 24/7 world?
Alastair Campbell 12:21
I never felt I was cracking up. I did feel stress. I think I learned the difference between pressure and stress. I like pressure. I like being under pressure. But I don't like stress. I don't like feeling when you just you feel “I'm not in control here.” But pressure I like. And I think the other thing is you have to have the ability to - I'm not good at switching off - but I did have the ability to you know, if I'm focusing on half a dozen things at once. I was able to focus on them one at a time. So, that I wasn't kind of just having this chaos.
Mark Scott 13:32
A sequential focusing on the issue of the moment.
Alastair Campbell 12:21
Yeah, Absolutely. So, and in a funny sort of way, the job helped with that. Because, I mean, I was his spokesman and Sress secretary and Director of Strategy. And I guess, because the spokesman bit meant contact with the media, I think they thought it was the most important part of my job. It wasn't really. I used that part of the job to strategize more. So, every morning when I did a briefing with the media, I had to be on top of absolutely everything, anything that might get asked about I had to be on top of it. In getting on top of it, I was kind of working out, I hope, where real problems were real challenges were in where we had to sort of make the next step. So, that was sort of trying to do.
Mark Scott 13:32
You kept a diary, which you've published, when you look at that diary, you think there are a lot of days you didn't seem too thrilled with the world.
Alastair Campbell 13:40
No, that was true.
Mark Scott 13:42
So, reflect back on it now. Was it a great time? Was it worth it for you? Were you happy doing it?
Alastair Campbell 13:51
It's really interesting you say that, because if you’d have just said to me at the time, I’d have said, “Oh, loving it, round peg in a round hole. This is what I was made for.” But then when I read the diaries back, when I transcribed the diaries, I couldn't believe how often I was like, clearly depressed. Started off, you know, “Woke up, felt shit. Went to bed, felt shit.” You know? It was like, and then through the day, “This was awful. That was awful. Oh, God, why did he do that? Why does she do that? Why did I do that?” So, looking back, I'm very, very, very happy that I did it. But I recognise I probably wasn't very happy a lot of the time doing it. And I think the other thing that happens in those jobs is you absorb so much of other people's pressure. And then I think the thing I really do regret, I think you then pile it on to the other people, particularly your family probably.
Mark Scott 14:41
Family. In the office too?
Alastair Campbell 14:43
A little bit but had a good really good team in the office. I think they, I think I did pile on to them, but, but in a way that they that was they saw that as part of their job as well.
Mark Scott 14:52
I want to move on to the political landscape more broadly now, but just, just back to two issues that you had to deal with that I think generated so much attention at the time. One was the, your, you've been called in to help out The Royal Family at the time of the death of Diana, how did you engage at that point to help them deal with that crisis and the rigidity of the image that the world was watching that they were projecting?
Alastair Campbell 15:22
I was in bed in London. Tony was in bed in Sedgefield. In fact, you know, famously they had to get a cop to go wake him up, because he didn't have a phone on and he didn't have alarm clock. You know, my phone rang, middle of the night. And, no in fact, the first I heard of it was a pager message in the days of pages. So, my pager went off. And it said, “Car” something like “Car crash in Paris. Dodi dead. Diana seriously injured. This is not a joke.”
Archival News Reader 15:54
Almost immediately after the announcement of a death, there were demonstrations of grief by the Princess’ admirers in Britain. Some wept openly, others stood in silence. Many left the pavements strewn with flowers and with tributes.
Alastair Campbell 16:10
But in terms of helping them what happened was when the body was flown back the next day, or that day, later that day, because it was the early hours by then, when the body was flown back, they, they The Palace, said that Tony as Prime Minister should go, and Charles was there and other members of the royal household were there. Other ministers were there. And I actually went separately, but obviously it was, you know, I was by then talking to Tony the whole time about how we're handling this and how we’re handling that, and he had a conversation with Lord [sic] Airlie, who was the head of the royal household. And they both called me over and Airlie said, “Look, we we've got every funeral planned for the Royals, you know, if the Queen died tomorrow, we know what to do. If Charles dies, you know, but Diana is not a royal anymore. So, we're going to need help on this.”
Archival News Reader 17:01
Buckingham Palace has not yet said when or where the funeral will take place, or where the Princess will be buried.
Alastair Campbell 17:09
And now, they know because they knew me when I was a journalist that I I'm not the biggest monarchist.
Mark Scott 17:14
Not the biggest fan
Alastair Campbell 17:09
No. And yet, so there were for the next few days. I was, I was in the Palace as much as I was in Number 10. And actually, it was really good. It was, the engagement was really good. We were very sensitive to their issues. But I'm not sure if they were quite as sensitive to our issues, because in their world, it didn't matter as much. We were conscious of the fact that the right-wing media in particular, was gagging to say Tony Blair's trying to take this whole thing over. So, it was quite, it was quite a tricky kind of balancing act. But it was, yeah, it was it was an incredible week. And the end of it was you know this in funerals in our own lives. There's sometimes you have a death, and there's all sorts of awful, terrible drama. And then the funeral brings a kind of closure. And it really felt like that, for the sort of but on this massive global scale.
Mark Scott 18:00
A lot of the pressure on the Blair government began to unravel with the Iraq War. And you were involved in putting together a document that made the case for the weapons of mass destruction. But then, the Blair government was accused of exaggerating the evidence and the BBC reported that the weapons inspector David Kelly, said the report had been sexed up, and within a week, David Kelly took his own life. You've reflected in your podcast, looking back on that time, how do you reflect back on your decision making and the issues you were dealing with?
Alastair Campbell 18:36
It's interesting because even Fiona, my partner, she said after she actually listened she said “God, I've never ever heard you talk about Iraq that before.” And I said “What do you mean?” And she's just thought I hadn’t. I felt I was saying things that I've said 1000 times. But I think what was happening I was, I was being more reflective.
Archival News Reader 18:54
The British government has published its own dossier, saying that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that could be ready in 45 minutes.
Archival News 19:01
The intelligence picture they paint is one accumulated over the last four years. It is extensive, detailed, and authoritative.
Archival News Reader 19:11
The government has later admitted that intelligence was faulty, and the 45-minute claim was wrong.
Alastair Campbell 19:18
And well look, deep down, I wish it never happened. But at the same time, I can still defend the decisions that Tony Blair made at the time. And I just, I do still get very, very angry that, you know, the whole Tony Blair thing, the fact that I get labelled as having sort of manipulated intelligence when I know I didn't. The fact that I get - I mean, there's not a single day, not literally not a single day, but it's not a single tweet I do that somebody in reply doesn't post a picture of David Kelly, or doesn't call me a war criminal or whatever it might be. And, again, I go back to the thing about the resilience that you build through something like having had a breakdown. That sort of helps you get through it, but I found the whole, it was a horrible, horrible, horrible period. No doubt about that. And you know, I said in my diaries on the day, on the day that David Kelly's body was found, I phoned Tony and I said “I want out. I can't do this anymore. I can't do it.” And Tony talked me into staying for a bit. I was already trying to leave anyway, because I was kind of slightly the end of my tether. So, I reflected on the policy I reflect, in this way, I basically think that I still support the decision based upon what Tony Blair was being told. And also based upon the fact that we knew that Saddam had used chemical and biological weapons in the past. And also based on the fact that Tony Blair did see the closeness of our relationship with the United States as being of fundamental national, strategic interest. But I can also see, one, why people thought it was the wrong decision. And I can also see why people look at it in in retrospect, with hindsight and think you could have handled it a lot better than you did.
Mark Scott 20:58
Since the Iraq War, since the Global Financial Crisis, we've just seen this trust in government continue to erode what's gone wrong with politics and why is this declining trust such a global phenomenon?
Alastair Campbell 21:12
I think the crash was the big thing. And the reason that, I think that is because I think that's what opened the door to populists who’d been around for quite a while presenting themselves as the, you know, the friends of the people against the elite. But what happened with a crash is that in, essentially, it confirmed this idea that the kind of the bankers and the politicians are completely screwed up and created this terrible crisis, the bankers didn't pay a price and the people did. And that allowed the populist politicians who have got no interest in providing solutions to come along exploit that problem. I also think to be absolutely honest, I know your, your background in media, my background in media, I think the way that the media has developed in recent decades, the sort of constant denigration of public life, the constant degradation of politics, this and also politicians not doing a very good job at defending themselves as a breed. So, that you know, both in your country and in mine, most of what you see is politics is Politician A puts forward a plan and Politician B criticizes them as the most stupid idea that has ever been, and vice versa. So, I think it's a combination of the spread of - you see, populism wouldn't spread unless there was a fertile ground for it to spread. And what the populists have also then done, they've used the other I talk about the three P's populism, polarisation and post truth. I think the three go together very, very well. Social media has flaired up the polarisation quite well. And post truth has been an incredible phenomenon for me, because, you know, like I said, earlier, we got accused of lying, I know we didn't lie. But now we have politicians who lie and get away with it. And I think that is a relatively new phenomenon. But what it says it also says something about the public that they hate it on one level, but they don't mind on the other
Mark Scott 23:02
They soak it up really.
Alastair Campbell 23:03
Yeah. And that's what that's what got us in this absolutely incredible situation where Trump, who's a total liar, absolute charlatan, and could come back. Incredible.
Mark Scott 23:12
Do you see a pathway for politicians in this environment, with a public that's kind of so open to the three P's you articulated, is there a pathway for politicians to have a more positive style of leadership?
Alastair Campbell 23:25
I think there is because I actually think that I wrote a book called Winners about nine years ago now. And it was about what politics could learn from business and sport. And, and vice versa. And one of the best quotes in it was from Arsene Wenger, the manager of Arsenal. And he said this thing, which I thought was really wise, he said, “We've gone from a vertical world to a horizontal world. In the vertical world leaders sat at the top made decisions, and the decisions work their way down through the system. In the horizontal world, the leader is surrounded by noise created by others all the time. And the response has been to be ever more tactical, because you deal with this bit of noise, that bit of noise.” And he said “The, the response should be to be ever more strategic.” And I think the problem with a lot of our politicians today is that they're just very, very tactical. Take Angela Merkel in Germany. Okay, she's been, her reputation has been marked down in recent years because of the Putin-Ukraine, dependence on Russian oil, etc. But if you look at her career, as Chancellor winning four terms, she wasn't one of these new leaders. She was leading with detail and respect and dignity and all the things that we say we want from leaders. I also think Macron in France, although, you know, he's in a bit of trouble at the moment and not as popular as he was, but, you know, he kind of came out of nothing with a very positive vision. So, it doesn't have to be that the populists win every time. You know, we just had Donald Tusk in Poland, who, you know, I would argue here with, with [Scott] Morrison, I think Morrison was a bit of a three P leader. Not as bad as [Boris] Johnson, but you know, the same breed. And he's gone, beaten by something else now. So, I think I think politicians are way, way too defensive about themselves, about what they do. I think sometimes we in politics actually saying to people, “Look, politicians can't do everything. Governments can't do everything.” And what's happened is the model, the old model, essentially, is the politician stands up and says, “Vote for me, and I'll give you everything you want.” And then it doesn't happen. So ,you create dissolution. I think the public are ready for a politicians who stand up and say, “Vote for me, I'll give you a leadership. Vote for me, and I'll focus on priorities vote for me, and I'll have a plan to address this, this, this and this, but I can't give you everything.” You know, and I just think the, I think that old model is I think it’s gone. And yet, maybe I'm wrong, because you know, they're all hanging on to the old model. And then meanwhile, you have these, you know, the - I do think there's got to be a comeuppance for the liars I really do. But it needs confidence it needs a more positive message than a lot of the progressive politicians are giving out. But then you look at somwhere like Americans and you think “Well Joe Biden has done a pretty good job.” He has no credit, he gets very little credit for it. And that effing monster’s, still hanging around like a bad smell could get back in.
Mark Scott 26:24
Are you encouraged by the success of your podcast, The Rest is Politics, that there is a market, an interest in intelligent discourse, divergent views coming together.
Alastair Campbell 26:35
I think it is about this thing we had we have this motto, disagree agreeably. So, we do disagree about stuff. But we tried to do agreeably. We've only had one bad fallout. We have guests on that we try and treat with respect, even though we don't agree with them always. And I think there's something strange happening, I think within the media landscape, the centre is being hollowed out. And so, you've got these two very different new forms that have emerged. One is, kind of. people getting all their news from TikTok. Or just scrolling on Twitter, which is kind of, you know, just cheap thrill one story, next story next story next story next story. And then the other is sitting down and listening to something where people try and do things in real depth. And I am encouraged by the fact that, I'll tell you when we, you know, we filled out the Albert Hall, or we sold out the Albert Hall in nine minutes. And we did some data on the people there and a third were under 30. Which I thought was great. I was in this school the other day in, I can’t remember where, somewhere in southern England. And this, this girl said, and her friends laughed when she asked the question, but I felt really sad. She said “Has politics always been this bad?” And I said, “How old are you?” And she said, I think she's 13 or 14. And her first political memory was Boris Johnson. Well if all you've seen is Boris Johnson, Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin? Yeah, for you, politics has always been this bad. So, as you tried to explain to here, there've been some really good Prime Ministers down the years, some great ministers, some amazing change. And the still can be, but it's harder in this environment. I kind of remain opti- I think, look, to be honest, we either go, we either go up or we go right under. I kind of feel will go up at some point.
Mark Scott 28:26
You have hope?
Alastair Campbell 28:27
I do. Yeah. And I get I'll tell you where I get the hope is actually in going to schools. I think a lot of kids have worked this out. They know that what's happening isn't working.
Mark Scott 28:35
Are you worried about the juxtaposition of a political environment that can be very dispiriting and a global environment, climate, everything else that can be so bleak and pessimistic, and mental health issues in society? And so, what's the message of hope for young people?
Alastair Campbell 28:51
They do have the capacity to make the change. And I can see why a lot of the time they feel that they don't. A lot, I write in the book a lot about individual people, a lot of them young women, Greta Thunberg being an obvious one. But also, for example, I write a chapter about a woman called Gina Martin, who, so Gina Martin was, this is what dealing with this thing about no point in getting involved because one person can't make a difference. So, what happened, you know this story, but she got she was at a festival. And she noticed that these two guys were filming her up her skirt. The police there because it was a big sort of big crowd festival. She said, “Excuse me, those two guys are following me around filming up the skirt, or my skirt.” They’d never had this before, phoned in. And the guy came back said “Look, I'm really sorry about this. Sorry, but there's no law against it.” And she’s just. Right? Well, within a year, there was a law against it. And she drove that by herself. And when you go through the process of how she did it, I explained to people it's really hard to make change, but you can do it. So I think there will come a point where either democracy explodes and it goes and I generally do worry if Trump comes back that could happen. Or, actually, this will we'll look back at this as a wave of a sort of populist, trivialising, polarising wave where we were dragged down, and then people realise that and then they moved into, into a different direction, it won't be going back to anything, it'll be going to something different. And I really think there has to be about young people getting their voice and doing it in a way that isn't just about shouting at politicians, and isn't just about, you know, it's about them actually having ideas about how you can make change.
Mark Scott 30:51
In your advocacy for, you know, funding and programmes around mental health, you've spoken so honestly, about your own experiences. Has that been a deliberate decision that that's what you feel you want to do? That's what you feel you have responsibility to do? And are there any times where you think I just don't want to talk about this anymore?
Alastair Campbell 31:12
No, I've never, ever, ever, I like talking about mental health. My one worry is, I think both here in Australia, and in the UK, I think we've had a lot of success on the awareness front. But one of the problems with that is we've made more people aware. But then they've all thought, “Oh, yeah, well, I feel a bit ill, I'll go see a doctor” and then they find there's no service there. We've now got to do the same with services. And we've got to do the same on prevention, as well. But no, I feel I've always felt very, very comfortable about it. Partly it goes back to the point I made about what the atmosphere was like in the Daily Mirror, when I went back after my breakdown, people were really, really supportive. And they helped me realise actually, there's no problem about being open with this. It is fine. And then the other thing is, you know, I had my own issues. But I also had a brother Donald, who had schizophrenia. And he's the real reason I campaign on this because, you see, my dad was 82, when he died, and Donald was 62, when he died. The average lifespan of somebody who spends an adult life on anti-psychotic medication is 20 years lower than you and I. And that's just so wrong. So, I think that, you know, whether it's about awareness, whether it's about services, but that's, that's a research question, we haven't really changed the medications on mental illness for a long, long time.
Mark Scott 32:29
It strikes me that when you look at the sophistication and the precision, of say, cancer medications now in personalised medicine, the treatment of mental health, as far as medication is concerned, just seems a century behind.
Alastair Campbell 32:43
Well, let's look at ,look at what happened with COVID. I mean, you know, when, when the world had to, they did, yeah, and we got a vaccine. Similarly, when, when we had to, I don't know if you have the same here, but in the UK, when COVID happened, suddenly, because people were getting worried that these poor people living on the streets might actually have COVID and give it to me walking by them, We found places for them to live.
Mark Scott 33:04
So, why can't mental health get higher up the government priority list? Medical research funding? Why is it still such a battle?
Alastair Campbell 33:15
Because, two reasons, I'd say one is because the other pressures are so monumental. But secondly, I think the, getting rid of stigma and taboo takes time. I think we're getting there. I think we're getting there. I also think we haven't won the argument that over time, this is a money saver, as well as a life saver. I think that well, if Labour get in, I'm really pleased that one of the things they're going to do thinking about these mental health hubs into schools. I think if we could just think about everyone, not everyone's mentally ill, but everyone has mental health. And just as we try and teach our kids to look after their physical health by running around and eating well, and all that, we’ve got to do the same for mental health. But also to be honest, it does take leadership, you do need political leaders who are going to say, “This matters. This is a priority.” And so, it will only happen when they say “This mental health stuff is more important than other things.” But I think it is because ultimately, you know, the stats on suicide in Australia and it’s the same in the UK, they're horrific. They're right at the top. If that was any other if you deleted suicide and put any other illness that was having that effect on people's lives and cost and so it would get fixed.
Mark Scott 34:31
So, do you think there's still a taboo issue there? What is it around mental illness, mental health?
Alastair Campbell 34:39
Because we're scared.
Mark Scott 34:40
Scared of what?
Alastair Campbell 34:40
While this, that's where taboo comes from people, people you have a taboo when you have a fear. So like when I was a kid, and you’ll remember this, we didn't call cancer, cancer. We call it the 'big C’. Why do we call it the 'big C'? Because we didn't want to call it what it was. Why didn't we want to call it what it was? Because it was scary. I remember my mum once sitting down at the kitchen table and saying that one of our neighbours, said, “Mr. Whitaker, he's got cancer, you mustn't tell anybody.” Now, if you think about, you mentioned earlier about cancer treatments, and cures that are, sort of, now around. If cancer always stayed as the ‘big C’, you wouldn't have had the success that you'd have. So, I think we're in the kind of ‘big C' phase, though. So, it's fear. I think a lot of that fear is in employment. I think people are really scared in the workplace, of being open, they think it will be held against them, including, by the way in the healthcare systems, which is where you’d think it shouldn't be like that. But I know people in the healthcare systems who say, “I wouldn't dream of telling my boss.” But we've got to get rid of that. You know, if somebody comes to you, and I know I'm now a bit of a sort of positive discrimiator, if I see two identical, sort of, you know, CVs, and, you know, same degree, same gap year, same this, same that same interest, but one of them's got a few months have gone missing, and maybe they were in a treatment centre, or maybe they were in prison. I'm gonna go for that one. Because I just think, you know, one, what do we want other people? We want honesty, and we want resilience.
Mark Scott 36:15
So, what does it feel like, when you're experiencing depression?
Alastair Campbell 36:22
I think everybody's different. With me, it's like, it's like a cloud. But it's sort of, sort of comes in, and I can feel it coming in. But then it gets into me, but it, it sort of fills my veins. And my legs feel like lead. And I feel, I feel sad if you're very, very sad, but it's worse than sad it's like, I know, I'm alive. I’m breathing, I can see things. I can eat. I can drink. I can walk. But I feel dead. It's like feeling dead. But you're living. When it's bad. It's, it's, it's truly horrible. And the thing is that you, you feel like, even though you know, you've been through it before, when it strikes like that, you think, “Oh, this is it. This is the last, this is this is it forever now this, this one is going to be.” And that's why I understand why people get driven to suicide when you have that. It's such an intense feeling. I have actually been able now, to build on the sense “I've been through this before, you know, it's going to end it's going to end. I'll get through this.”
Mark Scott 37:36
You're working incredibly hard. You can get you know, more than a book a year, a big podcast, you know, speaking engagements around the world, how do you manage the busy-ness and staying on top?
Alastair Campbell 37:49
Well, I don't always manage it very well. It's the truth. But, I don't know really, partly by keeping fit. Physical exercise is really important. I'm obsessed with sleep. The depressions that I get, come on, they can come on quite suddenly. But I'm kind of aware of them coming on. But then I've also got to be very careful when I've never been diagnosed with bipolar, bipolar, but I get very manic at times. And it's I'm incredibly creative, and I've got an unbelievable energy. But I've really got to watch that as well.
Mark Scott 38:21
Do you believe you haven't been diagnosed? Because you haven't pursued it? Or is that a diagnosis you have in your own?
Alastair Campbell 38:26
I think I've been diagnosed. Yeah, and I've got depression, I get depression. But the psychiatry that I've saw psychiatrist for a long time, and he said, I don't think you're bipolar. But you get very bad depression. And so, he would argue that my what I'm other people might define as my manic is actually me most of the time, right. And that's about energy. Yeah. But I have this wonderful experience in. in Canada I did a TV documentary, and then a book about my depression. The idea of the BBC, you like this, because they know you're big in telly. And so the BBC came and said, you know “Want to do, I want you to do a documentary on depression, we want you to travel around the world, go wherever you want. Talk to different people about how they deal with their depression, doctors, scientists, researchers, etc. And then our dream, you know, is that you explore it, and then hey, presto, your depression is gone.” And the final scene is I'm walking into the sunset, and I throw my antidepressants over my shoulder, etc. Anyway, that didn't happen. What did happen is that I met a woman in Canada, who was a geneticist. And after we started filming, she said, “How do you deal with your depression then?” she said to me, and I said, “I, well I see a psychiatrist and I take medication.” “Oh,” she said because I get and I'm normally good at spotting people got depression, didn't read it with her at all. “Oh, that's interesting because I get really bad depression.” “Oh,” said he surprised. I said, “How'd you do? How'd you deal with it?” And she said, she said, “I've got a jam jar.” So, she basically said, she said, look, there's a jam jar. I'll use the bottle because he's got less water in it. There's a jam jar. And down in the bottom, that's your genes. Yeah. Okay. And in a jam jar that’s sediment, nothing you can do about it, nothing you can do about your genes. The rest of the jam jar is your life. And it fills up with a good experiences and bad experiences. And normally we cope. Most of the time normally we cope. But then whenever it gets out of control, the jam jar explodes and that's when we were ill. And she said, we spend all our time trying to fix this stuff down here. But you can't undo it. What you can do is grow the jam jar so you can put more of life into it. And I didn't really know what she's talking about, but then it clicked a few days later, and I now use the jam jar. And what it is, is I use it as a sort of working tool. I travel with it and if I've started to feel that -
Mark Scott 40:47
A physical jam jar?
Alastair Campbell 40:50
Yeah. A jam jar. And if I'm starting to feel depressed, I'll look at it and I see the sediment and there's the life and then I build on it all the things that I know have helped me. So the first thing is F, F, F: Fiona, Family, Friends. Okay. Next one is meaningful activity. Both work to make a living but work to change the world. Then my fundamentals which is sleep, diet, exercise. Then the stuff that matters to me. Burnley Football Club, bagpipe music, my dog, my bike. Then this thematic stuff, curiosity, creativity. Some days I can't do because I'd be so depressed, I can't get out of bed. But if I'm on a sort of not terrible depression, but I'm getting I'm declining. I go through every single one of them every day and just tick them off. Listen to music, not the news; read books, not newspapers. Think of somebody you've not spoken to for while, reach, reach out to them. Tell them what's going on. Be open, be honest. And you know, it could be a coincidence, but I've my depression has been a lot better since I've got my jam jar.
Mark Scott 41:58
I'm Mark Scott, the Vice Chancellor of The University of Sydney. Alastair Campbell is a journalist, author, broadcaster and mental health campaigner. And his podcast is called The Rest is Politics.
Alastair Campbell 42:12
I've got to be honest, it's been a bit of a surprise that it's been quite as popular as it is. You know, I've been around a long time. I mean, I left government more than 20 years ago. So, I've been kind of on this doing, talking, writing, broadcasting ever since. But this this has cut through in a way that very little I've ever done before has.
Mark Scott 42:35
And in Australia, you can call BeyondBlue on 1300 224636 for free mental health advice and support. That's 1300 224636 Please take care of yourself. As Alistair reflected, nations are becoming increasingly polarised, so how do we come together to create big and lasting change?
Kate Harrison Brennan 43:06
What I saw in early days for me in politics was this ability of someone like Julia Gillard as Prime Minister, Prime Minister after having worked across some 17 days to bring people together and form government, have a deep interest in what motivates people, and a willingness to actually get in the room and negotiate and I think that that's foundational to actually be able to bring people together. A sense of what defines them, what's distinctive, and how might you find common ground between them?
Mark Scott 43:34
Scroll back in your podcast feed to find that episode of The Solutionists with Kate Harrison Brennan from the Sydney Policy Lab. The Solutionists is a podcast from The University of Sydney produced by Deadset studios. This episode was recorded at the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences media room. And our thanks to the technical staff here.
The Solutionists is podcast from the University of Sydney, produced by Deadset Studios. Keep up to date with The Solutionists by following @sydney_uni on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Sourcing/credit: Archival media clips from BBC News.
This episode was produced by Monique Ross with sound design by Jeremy Wilmot. Executive editors are Kellie Riordan, Jen Peterson-Ward, and Mark Scott. Thanks to the technical staff at the at the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences Media Room.
This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. For thousands of years, across innumerable generations, knowledge has been taught, shared and exchanged here. We pay respect to elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.