Meet the Solutionists, with Mark Scott

Do you ever wish you could be a kid again?

Remember the freedom of childhood – no job, no responsibilities, no worries... if you were lucky. In the lucky country, every child should have the opportunity to grow, explore and learn free from worry. But how?

Philosopher Luara Ferracioli says universal access to early childhood education and care is the key. Universal ECEC would make sure every Australian child gets an equitable education, as well as access to a social life beyond their own families.

Luara explains the ‘inherent goods of childhood,’ why they’re crucial for a flourishing childhood, and how universal childcare makes sure those goods are available to all children. 

Mark Scott  00:01

This podcast is recorded at the University of Sydney's Camperdown campus on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. They've been discovering and sharing knowledge here for tens of thousands of years. I pay my respects to elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

Child 1  00:32

The best thing about being a kid is you don't have to go to work, and you have so many toys. Being a kid is super fun, because we do lots of playing, and we get birthday parties on your birthday.

Child 2  01:04

The fun thing about being a kid is having friends, doing play dates and sleepovers, seeing cousins and having family time and doing sport.

Child 3  01:17

My favorite being about a kid is being a big sister, because I have so much fun with my little one. She makes me happy and so happy I want to play with her every day.

Child 4  01:34

The best thing about being a kid is you get to do like all the fun games at school, soccer, football, and all the sports and everything else.

Child 5  01:49

My favorite stuff is being a kid is going to school, because then I could learn new stuff.

Child 6   01:58

I think the best thing about being a kid is you don't have to do all the laundry, fold all the clothes, do the dishes.

Mark Scott  02:15

What makes a childhood good? I'm an educator, parent, now, grandparent and like everyone, I want to see kids grow up and lead happy, fulfilling and successful adult lives. What do we need to do to give children the best prospect of doing that? What makes childhood good for children? Dr Luara Ferracioli is a philosopher and Associate Professor at the University of Sydney, and she's mulling over these important questions of good childhood. Luara, in your work as a philosopher, what is your starting point for bringing a philosophical approach to childhood?

Luara Ferracioli  02:58

So I'm very interested in the kind of broader question of family ethics, and that means I always start by asking, What are children's interests? Are there interests here that have been disregarded, not taken sufficiently seriously? And then from there, I think about the relationship between the parent and the child, or society and the child, and even more, kind of general questions about our societal attitudes towards child rearing. I think we're still moving away from an old model where we didn't really think of children as having independent and equal moral status. You know, in the last 100 years, we thought of children last few hundreds of years when, you know, the state started developing its kind of current characteristics, if you like, the parents still had a lot of control over their children. They we still thought of children as belonging to their parents. And I think we're still breaking away from that way of thinking about the parent-child relationship. And we are now, not only me, but many philosophers questioning whether we have the right arrangements in place in order to ensure that children lead good childhoods and also are well placed to lead good adulthoods later on in their lives.

Mark Scott  04:18

In your research, you say that for childhood to go well, it must be carefree. Pretty complex in this world, with all the pressures that young people might experience, even through their family and their kind of family dynamic, what does it mean to be carefree, and how do we create that environment for children?

Luara Ferracioli  04:38

In my work, I say that carefreeness is necessary for children to lead good lives, but not necessary for adults to lead good lives. Now, why is that the case? Adults have the ability to weigh the kind of the different opportunities that are available to them, the risks that are involved, or what morality requires, what they find worthwhile in life, and then it may well be that they will go for a project that is quite stressful, but that fits with their overall conception of the good, right? They put their hands up say for being a politician, and maybe that's not going to be the most carefree time of their lives, but they can recognise that that will put them in a position to achieve things that they care deeply about. Or think of a brain surgeon, operating on the worst types of brain cancer. Of course, it's going to be very hard for that person to be carefree, but we can see how a life of achievement in medicine makes for a great life. Now, children can't do that. They can't take a step back and think about where their stressful project fits with their overall conception of what a good life looks like, because they don't yet have an overall conception and they're not very good at thinking about the different steps and sacrifices and costs that are required for a life to go well. So, for children, it's really important that they feel positive emotions towards the things in their lives, the kind of valuable things in their lives, such as play and time with friends and loving parent-child relationships. All the things that you know, I think most of us agree, are important for a good childhood are, in a way, dependent on children being carefree, because if they're not carefree, if they're stressed, if they're anxious, then they can't really enjoy those things that we all agree are valuable. It's just not enough for them to be valuable. The kind of pro attitude needs to be there as well, and children are unable to develop a pro attitude without the positive emotions.

Mark Scott  06:44

Isn’t though, one of the things we've got to learn as we grow up that sometimes you just got to do stuff, whether you enjoy it or not. Sometimes you're going to have to do homework, sometimes you're going to have to try foods that you're not that keen on. So can you correlate between almost like the things we need to learn to be successful and leading a carefree childhood.

Luara Ferracioli  07:07

That's basically one of the main challenges for parents. They need to get this balance between ensuring that children are carefree and they have those positive emotions and they're enjoying school and time with their friends and time exploring the environment and playing and having fun, but also are being placed in a position where they will be able to promote and protect their interests later in life. So, for example, their interest in education, right or health. So that's why it's important that they eat well, that's why it's important that they do their homework. So it's this constant juggle. It's not that we should only care about children leading a good childhood. Obviously, we also need to think about their future interests and then being well placed to lead a good adulthood. The thing that can be tempting is to spend so much time thinking about their future and then forget that those goods are very important.

Mark Scott  08:01

You talk about the goods of childhood, and you say there are two types of good, you know, what are they and how do they contribute to a child's experience of the world around them?

Luara Ferracioli  08:10

So I think we have developmental goods, and these are things like cognitive abilities, social skills, things that children need to develop well and then be in a position to promote and protect their interests when they grow up. You know, pursue their life they care about. But then there are goods that are good for children in the here and now. They might lead to positive outcomes later on, but even if they don't, it's important that children have access to those goods. So one of them is friendship. Friendship is so important for children. Children get to, you know, deal with many of the things that are stressing them and worrying them in the context of friendship in the same way that, you know, you might go for a walk with your adult friend and discuss some work challenge you're facing, or, you know, big life decision, children use play with their friends to deal with some of the things they're they're concerned with, or just to process their emotions. Friendships are incredibly meaningful relationships. There are people we care deeply about, and we care about the wellbeing of our friends, you know, as much as we care about our own wellbeing. So it's really important for children to already experience that at the beginning of life, and of course, with that, they will develop all sorts of valuable social skills. Then you have exploration which is not driven by other forms of rewards, such as not as a kind of prestige or income or wealth, many of the things that drive us adults, you know, and what's really special about childhood is that often those things are not even in their radar. So when they are fascinated by dinosaurs, for example, they are generally just fascinated by that creature. What kind of creature was a dinosaur? What did they do? You know, what happened to them? They just are so they're moved, fully moved by the thing that interests them, irrespective of whether this will lead to additional outcomes.

Mark Scott  10:11

What do they learn? What's that pure curiosity developing in them?

Luara Ferracioli  10:17

It will have positive effects in terms of cognitive development, I think we have good evidence for that. But even if it doesn't, right, isn't that so special that there is a time in your life where you can just feel joy and awe and fascination and you can just engage with the project without having to think about the kind of downstream consequences of that engagement. So it's really important to protect that in childhood and not to, you know, be too pushy towards things that you as a parent think are valuable or will lead to positive outcomes later on in life. Again, going back to your point before, it is important that children you know, maybe learn an instrument or do well at school and all those things absolutely but we need to make sure that there is time to get really obsessed about dinosaurs, even if you're never going to be a paleontologist,

Mark Scott  11:13

You're a strong advocate for universal early childhood care and education in Australia. What do you mean by the word universal there?

Luara Ferracioli  11:22

Universal would be that all children have access to high quality early childhood education and care, irrespective of the level of income of their parents, irrespective of where they live in Australia, irrespective of whether they were born here or migrated here, whether they live in the cities or in the regional areas. Whatever else is happening in their lives, children should have access to early childhood education and care, because that environment makes it much easier for children to enjoy the goods of childhood that we've been discussing.

Mark Scott  11:55

And when you think of that, is there an age where that really kicks in? I appreciate that many children will need to be in this kind of care, because the parents both need to go back to work. But, you know, it used to be, you know that kids would go to school at five, and if there was some opportunity for preschool or kindergarten before, then fine, but five was when it kicked in. Are we now saying that for the benefit of the child, that this kind of learning opportunity should be starting earlier than that?

Luara Ferracioli  12:26

That's right. So three to five, I think, are the key ages, and the one we should be paying most attention to. Although empirical evidence tells us that even you know, one year olds benefit from attending ECEC, so all children benefit, but the greater benefits come at that age bracket, three to five, the preschool years, as we call them in Australia. And unfortunately, not all Australian children have access to preschool, high quality preschool, so they're missing out.

Mark Scott  12:57

I remember when I was Secretary of the Education Department here in New South Wales, an eminent educator said to me that, to never forget, the greatest predictor of a child's educational attainment on the last day of school is that child's level of educational attainment on the first day of school, which is sobering, I think, for if you're running a school system. But it does say these early years are really important for the children in their own right.

Luara Ferracioli  13:25

That’s right, they're so important. We know that there's so much brain development happening in those years. And we know that not all parents have the time and the resources to give children the opportunities they need to be ready for school. And so, if we don't provide universal ECEC in Australia, we end up with a situation where not all children are well placed to start their formal education journey. And that's incredibly unfair.

Child 1  14:00

I think grown up rules are a bit complicating. You have to vote for a prime minister. It's annoying when the grown ups tell you to do stuff like you have to do your homework, you have to do the dishes, you have to cook stuff. It's waste your time like you want to play sport or games and stuff.

Child 2  14:25

An annoying thing is that when I want to get a toy and I see say, Mum, can I get that toy? Then most of the time, mum says, No, I have to save up to get a house.

Child 3   14:40

I don't like grown up rules because it's so boring that you have to do school work all the time. That's one of my teacher’s rules, and because I'm not only allowed to eat anything I want, and the fridge is not usually full.

Child 4  15:00

Grown up rules are annoying because when they tell me, I have to hop in the bath, I don't want to hop in the bath. And also, when I get in the bath, they say, hop out of the bath, but then I want to stay in the bath more longer.

Mark Scott  15:21

One argument might be, it's a parent's responsibility to kind of look after those first five years intensively. Suppose there might be some parents who think, actually, no one can do this better than me, and they might be worried about, you know, at a very young age, handing a child over to an institution, and that institution, it might be issues like preservation of language or culture or practicing a particular faith. How do you design a system for everyone that recognise that families are different, values are different, priorities might be different? ,

Luara Ferracioli  15:53

Yeah, so universal doesn't mean compulsory, right? So you're not forcing parents to send their child to a childcare center, and that already helps us deal with this concern that you're not taking the values of parents sufficiently seriously. So the way to design, I think, a universal ECEC, is to make it a default in the same way that going to school is a default here in Australia, going to primary school is a default. But of course, some parents do homeschool their children, so we kind of change that around and make going to childcare centre the default. And then, of course, some parents will opt out. Often. They will have good reasons for that. They have the time, they have the resources, they have the disposition they're able to do that, absolutely. But not all parents will have good reasons. They might be, you know, misinformed about the benefits of early childhood education and care, and then it becomes very important that we change those attitudes and inform parents about how valuable access to early childhood education and care really is.

Mark Scott  17:04

So you're very encouraging about the upside of universal early childhood care and education, but I suspect you know some parents would be instinctively worried about handing their children over to the state, almost you know, in that institutional educational process too early. What would you say to parents who'd be worried that this is overreach of the state to be involved in children so young in this way?

Luara Ferracioli  17:30

Well, I would say that we have a lot of evidence that these settings provide children with opportunities that make their childhoods go well, but also put them in a position to thrive later on in life. And so there's a lot of research behind the curriculum in, say, a preschool setting, these are not adults that just arrive at a childcare center and make something up. There's a lot of really good research behind the activities that they have in place, the state is also responsible for children leading good lives, and I think in societies like ours, the state takes that responsibility very seriously. I think the way I think about it is that parents in the state share responsibility over children, and there are some interests of children that the parents in the best position to protect and promote. So think of the interests of the child in being part of a loving relationship. Of course, the parents well placed to protect that interest. But think of the child's interest in health or in healthy physical environment. You know, as a parent, I can't just create a playground in my neighborhood that puts my children in a position to explore the environment in a carefree way. So I need the state to do a good job at creating the conditions for children to lead a good life. And if I see myself as working in tandem with the state, I do the bits I can do really well. Then as a parent, I trust that the government is relying on experts should do its job really well, and then I can also then advocate for my child and other children, right? So if you feel that the government is not doing an excellent job of providing children with environments for play, for example, you don't think the playgrounds in your local area are well resourced, write to to your government, to the local government, tell them why it's important that your child gets to spend time outside playing with their friends. So parents can also advocate for their children, but the state has access to experts that have spent their whole lives thinking about, what does it mean for a child to be healthy? What does it mean for a child to receive a great education?

Mark Scott  19:48

So if we significantly expand access, and we make it far more affordable for families, that's going to cost the taxpayer a lot of money. So your argument would be that's a great investment in the future of children and the future of the nation. But any thoughts on how we might pay for it?

Luara Ferracioli  20:09

Okay, so I do think, just to add to the bill, I do think it should be free for low income families, not only very affordable, but actually free, and then the more you earn once you're no longer in the kind of low socio economic bracket, the more you pay. I think that would be a fair way to go about it. Yes, it would be very expensive, but there's a lot of research showing that, you know, every dollar you invest in early childhood education and care, you get seven to $12 back in the economy.

Mark Scott  20:39

How does that work? Is that an immediate payback on participation in the workforce from parents, or is it on the cost and the burden to taxpayer over the life of the child, once they've had the benefits of early childhood education?

Luara Ferracioli  20:53

So in the lifetime of the child, there will be less need for remedial, educational support, social services, children who attend ECEC to better at school. They're less likely to be caught up in the judicial system. So, we will save in other ways, but also a more educated workforce, is a workforce that increase the wealth of the nation.

Mark Scott  21:19

I’m interested, so as I hear you say that you said earlier, look, parents can homeschool, but basically schooling is compulsory. You know, if it wasn't hard to execute, is there an argument that, basically we should be starting at the age of three, and one way or another, children should be in structured learning earlier, and that we're just starting the whole structured education program too late.

Luara Ferracioli  21:45

Well, that's a great, very difficult questions. I do have my moments when I think maybe ECEC should be compulsory, at least, yeah, for four year olds that year that now is not compulsory. So for example, in the Netherlands, children start school at age four. Maybe we should be following their example, but I think we're not there yet in Australia. We need to take a step at a time, make it more affordable, because early childhood education and care here is incredibly expensive. It's one of the hardest countries for you to send your child to early childhood education and care because it's so expensive. So we need to make it more affordable now. Maybe, you know, work hard on changing societal attitudes, and once it becomes normal, it's not something we really question, that children will go to preschool before school is just given. Then we could have a conversation about making it compulsory, such that if you're not sending your child to a childcare centre, you need to show the government that you're doing all the things, or most of the things they'll be doing that setting.

Mark Scott  22:54

Why is it so expensive in Australia? I mean, if we think of our workforce, it's hardly viewed as a lucrative career to work in early childhood. What is it about the bills that Australian parents have to face that makes them that much deeper than you see in other places in the world?

Luara Ferracioli  23:09

Yeah. So in Australia, we rely too heavily on the for-profit model, and for profit centres are there to make a profit. And so when government gives us more subsidy gives us I mean, here I'm putting my hat as a parent, those centres increase their fees, and so it goes up and up. There's no, nothing the system that keep puts pressure on the prices. So we do need to question our reliance on the for-profit model if we're going to achieve truly universal ECEC.

Mark Scott  23:44

My wife's an educator. I work in education. We've had three girls who are now all kind of grown up, but we've got a grandchild staying with us at the moment. And one of the things I think we've both reflected is that we observe far more about our grandchild's development than we could possibly remember about our own children's development because we were just so exhausted at the time. To the exhausted parents listening to this podcast who will be playing with their children after a busy week on a Saturday afternoon, what should they be thinking about in that time they're spending with their children, and how do they ensure that they are just giving the best opportunity for their children to explore all that childhood has to offer?

Luara Ferracioli  24:24

For any parent who is listening to this, I would say, maybe don't worry that much about your child's future, career prospects, their level of income and wealth. Worry a bit, by all means, but make sure that they are just enjoying their childhood. They are having fun, they're spending time with their friends. They are exploring the environment without having to worry about whether this will take them somewhere later on in life. They're just having that joy and that fascination that's so valuable that so many of us don't get the opportunity to to engage with in our adulthood. We know we lead very busy lives, and often there is no time to engage with things just because they are intrinsically valuable.

Mark Scott  25:13

But it's interesting that, and even on this podcast, we've talked about the insights we now have about mindfulness and just being in the moment, and to turn off that brain that's constantly thinking and worrying and just be right here, right now for this moment.

Luara Ferracioli  25:31

That’s right. And I think if you do that as a parent, in a way, you are actually placing them in a better position to succeed and achieve later in life, because a child who leads a good childhood, who enjoys all the goods of childhood, who has fun, is a child that has the kind of psychological resources she needs later in life to achieve and, you know, to face many of the challenges that this generation will no doubt face in 20-30, years from now. Don't forget that this is such a special life stage. It's like we said before, three to 13 years. It's very short. It's just 10 years. And then it goes so quickly and suddenly you just don't get enough time to enjoy things like just being there in the moment with your friend, just having fun, just laughing and doing these things that are so important for a good life.

Child 1  26:31

If I was in charge of the whole world, I would change school. I wouldn't I wouldn't make anyone go to school.

Child 2  26:40

If I was in charge of the hallway, everyone will get Yochi all the time, every day, two, two days, no two Yochison two in two days.

Child 3  26:53

If I made the rules, it would be good, because I would do stuff for people, and I'd make good rules, like, yeah, like, you could… free tickets to sport games.

Child 4  27:14

I think the grownups make the rules because kids need to be safe and they need to know stuff and learn

Mark Scott  27:26

That's Associate Professor Luara Ferracioli from the University of Sydney. Thanks to all the wonderful children, including those from St Aidan's Anglican Girls School in Brisbane, for their frank and unvarnished views. And actually, if you love a bit of philosophy and you want to untangle modern problems through ancient wisdom, you like our episode about liberalism with Professor Alex Lefebvre.

Alex Lefebvre  27:51

Originally in Rome, that word liberal meant an ethical ideal, and it meant to be someone who is free, but also someone who is generous and who is ready and willing to give their time, their money, perhaps even their life, to something bigger and broader than themselves.

Mark Scott  28:06

Alex’s new book on liberalism was a sensation last year, generating so much international attention, and you can find a great conversation with him on the solutionist podcast. You can listen to that episode right now and make sure you're following the show so you don't miss an episode. The solutionist is a podcast from the University of Sydney produced by Deadset Studios. This episode was recorded at the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences media room, and our thanks to the technical staff here.

The Solutionists is podcast from the University of Sydney, produced by Deadset Studios. Keep up to date with The Solutionists by following @sydney_uni Facebook and Instagram, and @sydney.edu.au on Bluesky.

This episode was produced by Liam Riordan with sound design by Jeremy Wilmot. Supervising producer is Andrea Ho. Executive editors are Kellie Riordan, Jen Peterson-Ward, and Mark Scott. Strategist is Ann Chesterman. Thanks to the technical staff at the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences Media Room.

This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. For thousands of years, across innumerable generations, knowledge has been taught, shared and exchanged here. We pay respect to elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.