Meet the Solutionists, with Mark Scott

Society feels more divided than ever. We seem to be talking about this all the time, but it’s exactly these discussions that are pulling us further apart.

Professor Betina Szkudlarek says it’s worse than differences of opinion. Today, people are less likely than ever to even hear out someone who’s different to them in some way. So what do we do?

Betina points to refugee employment as a case study – and you’ll hear from Karyna, a Ukrainian refugee who now manages a restuarant in Sydney. Businesses are now some of our most trusted institutions, and they’re the place you’re likely to experience the most diversity on a daily basis. Betina explains what we can learn from businesses who are committed to building a more cohesive society, and shares tips on how you can contribute at work, too.

Mark Scott  00:01

This podcast is recorded at the University of Sydney's Camperdown campus on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. They've been discovering and sharing knowledge here for 10s of 1000s of years. I pay my respects to elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

Karyna  00:25

I came to Australia because of the war, with my family. We had to leave Ukraine in February 2022.

Mark Scott  00:38

This is Karyna. She works at Kyiv Social in Chippendale. It's a social enterprise and Ukrainian restaurant that hires refugees and donates some 2,500 weekly meals to locals in need. When Karyna first arrived in Australia, Kyiv Social was the key to unlocking her new life.

Karyna  01:01

It my first job. I don't know why I decided to try exactly in the restaurant, but I just had very limited English skills, and I found on a Facebook group that they are hiring Ukrainian refugees. They are going to train, provide English classes. That's why I decided to try. I only had my family. I didn't have any friends, and I just felt that I feel lost, and I need to start doing something to be part of Australian community to be part of Australian life.

Mark Scott  01:45

Karyna's experience at work was crucial for building a new life in a new place. But what if it hints at a solution to global problems? Do you get the sense that we're more divided than ever? If you do, you're not alone. Political divisions around the world seem to be growing more extreme. Places of worship are routinely targeted with violence and vandalism, and at the end of 2025, Australia had its deadliest shooting incident in almost three decades. Our social lives are mediated by apps and algorithms designed to turn us against each other, or to trap us in echo chambers we're not even aware of. Trusted institutions like universities, governments, and media organisations is at an all-time low. We all know we can't continue this way for much longer. So, what if the solution is just keep going to work? Betina Szkudlarek has spent decades studying what actually brings people together across difference and what tears them apart, and she says the business sector might have the most impactful role to play in building social cohesion right now. This is The Solutionists. I'm Mark Scott. Bettina is a Professor of Management at the University of Sydney Business School, a consultant with the United Nations Alliance of Civilisations, and one of Australia's leading researchers on refugee employment. Bettina, I don't think anyone will be surprised to hear us talking about social cohesion, it's all over the media. And I think most of us just feel that our social fabric is in some trouble. Is there evidence to back that up?

Betina Szkudlarek  03:34

Well, unfortunately, yes. We have a few, you know, public surveys that kind of look into the, the scores, the sentiments. Locally within Australia we have Scanlon Research Institute that is running an annual survey of social cohesion, and I think it's now the 17th year that we've been measuring social cohesion in Australia, with that survey. And in 2024 we kind of noted the lowest score and those scores has, haven’t improved since. But there is another, you know, large global survey which is really interesting. It's the Edelman Global Trust Report and it really talks about the fact that basically it's not anymore about polarisation. It's not anymore about the fact that we have different opinions. It's now much more about the fact that we don't trust people who think or come from a different background than our own. So it shows that globally and in Australia, seven in 10 people are hesitant or unwilling to connect or trust or interact with people different than ourselves, and that's quite worrying. That's, that's not anymore. We don't like different opinions. We actually don't want to have anything to do with people different than ourselves.

Mark Scott  04:44

What is it about us as people that makes social cohesion difficult in the first place?

Betina Szkudlarek  04:51

I think it really comes down to human nature, and, and maybe you know, let me just give you an example, Mark. Let's, let's imagine that you are going into a new workplace. It's your first day. You don't know anyone just yet. You see two people having a, you know, a little coffee chat. You approach them and you crack a little joke, because you want you want to break their eyes. Now one person thinks you're hilarious and they are laughing their head off, but the other person is a little bit kind of puzzled, they don't really get your joke. You try to explain, but the person is even more confused. Now, who would you rather sit next to this day at work, the person who got your joke or the person who didn't?

Mark Scott  05:28

So, what is it, a desire to fit in, a desire to belong, a level of comfort? What's driving that?

Betina Szkudlarek  05:35

We are absolutely searching for, for familiarity, for similarity. It's a natural tendency we have as human beings, psychologists call it homophily. We like people like ourselves. It gives us predictability. It gives us security. It makes us feel like we can be what we call ourselves. And the truth is also that the way our brain operates, we continuously put people in boxes. We continuously categorise. So, for example, if the two of us find out that we both supported Spain in the World Cup, we would feel you know affinity. We would feel like we are connecting. But if I start talking about, I don't know, workforce allocation policies, we might sense a bit of a you know tension and divide. So both our identities, our you know backgrounds, our values, but even topics would, will generate in groups and out groups, and we do it all the time.

Mark Scott  06:27

So instinctively, we’re, we're drawn to people we are close to that we're more like, but social cohesion seems to be a tougher issue now. There have always been differences. What is it about these times that's made social cohesion difficult?

Betina Szkudlarek  06:41

There, there are quite a few, you know, trends that we are seeing, which, which makes it so much more challenging. I think, first of all, Australia has gone through a relatively stable period, and now with all the geopolitical unrest, with a bit of an economic insecurity, those fears generate exactly the, the notion that we are searching for someone to blame, and who is easy to blame? Of course, some sort of outgroup. So that's where this kind of polarisation comes in place. You also mention everything that happens with technology and the fact that we are continuously being fed information through the lens that we support. The, the social media algorithms will be giving us information from one perspective alone, and we know again we, we have public opinion surveys around it, that only about three in 10 Australians tend to read information from sources different than those that they traditionally affiliate themselves with. So, so with the social media and the little echo chambers that we live in, we really increasingly see that we are not exposed to different worldviews. In fact, we are being reinforced that our perspective is the one and only right perspective.

Karyna  07:59

So to explain my English skills. In my first shifts, I even wasn't able to say spoon, forks, like simple words. It was new to me, and at first, like refugee people who don't really speak English. They also, you are scared to talk, and to start talking, you need practice. I really grateful that all of our managers, Shaun, and all of our staff, they were really understanding. I met many interesting and great Ukrainian people who had a big career in Ukraine. Economists, engineers, doctors. But we were in the same position. Me, who just started studying university, just finished high school and came to Australia. I was lost, and they were lost too. Step by step, I started speaking to my coworkers, to our customers, who always wondering to know, regarding like our experience, what we are facing with, in Australia, I just started integrating to the Australian life.

Mark Scott  09:38

Now I'm interested that you're approaching all this as a business school professor, so we all have a role to build social cohesion, particularly in organisations like this. But, but you're focused on the role that the business sector has to play. Why is that?

Betina Szkudlarek  09:53

You've raised before that we see the declining trust in institutions. Now, the surprising trend is that yes, we don't trust anymore. Media, we don't trust the government. We actually don't even trust that much NGOs as we trust business. So we have again public opinion surveys showing that we do trust business leaders and we do expect business leaders to take stance on some of those important socially relevant issues. And from our point of view, there is the kind of micro and macro ways of thinking about it. On a very basic level, we in the workplace, potentially that might be the only place where we meet diverse people. Our circles of friends, our neighbourhoods tend to be quite homogeneous. Now, workplace that's where diversity happens, so we get to actually interact with people who are different. But on a kind of larger level, if you think about the role of business leaders and the impact they had on shaping how we think about the world, and, and you know we, we can clearly call some big names of business people whose one sentence, you know, one public statement has more impact than years of public policy, so, so we see that the business sector can be important both because of the interactions that we have every single day, but also because of the resources, the power, the, the visibility that business leaders have today.

Mark Scott  11:16

And are you saying that you think businesses needs to take a responsibility for building social cohesion?

Betina Szkudlarek  11:24

I do say that businesses should take responsibilities for social cohesion, absolutely. I think for me this particular reflection, it happened a few years ago when we travelled to attend the United Nations PRME event. PRME's, it’s Principles for, for Responsible Management Education. And I was absolutely surprised that about 80% of conversation throughout this event was about climate change. And in some way, you know, in the last 10, 15 years, businesses accepted the responsibility for acting on climate change. I think if we have accepted that businesses have a role in climate change, we can certainly accept that as places that bring people together, businesses have a massive role to play in social cohesion. So, so this is actually where, where that sentiment came from. We accepted the role and responsibility for the environment. We need to realise that workplaces are shaping how we think about diversity, how we interact, and, and what values we have in interacting with others.

Mark Scott  12:25

Apart from making sure that institutions have good policies in place, what should leaders be doing?

Betina Szkudlarek  12:32

Look, it's going to sound very trivial, but you know, leading by example and relating to diversity in a very humane way would be the, the first point. But I think, let me just give you an example of how, you know, a company that we worked with for the last few years is doing it quite well. So we just finished a large project with IKEA, and we've been looking at their refugee inclusion programme. They are one of those companies that publicly declare their commitment to refugee inclusion. Now, of course, there is the obvious element, the employment and training, and so on, and they do a big part of their strategy. They devote to, to those bits. But the strategy has a second big pillar, and it's called changing the narrative. And what they are trying to do through their platform, through their visibility, is really changing all the misinformation that we have around refugees and, and the resettlement process, and they're going out there and dehumanising the view that we might be having from media that is quite you know negative often around refugees, and trying to bring those real stories and, and highlighting all the benefits that they've seen through the, you know, their business experience. So, so they are not just doing employment. They are not just doing the business case. They actually very specifically commit to what they call again, changing the narrative.

Mark Scott  13:49

And what drove them? I, I understand a sense of how they tapped into a potential part of the workforce of people who came in grateful for the work, willing to work hard, clearly bring skills to bear. So they've taken advantage of that, possibly untapped workplace in the community. What then made IKEA go to the second step and say, "There's an advocacy role, there's a community leadership role. Let's change the narrative.” Why did they decide to do that?

Betina Szkudlarek  14:18

I think with IKEA, and, and there are you know other organisations like this. They have they really live their values in many ways, and one of those values is togetherness. And it was quite fascinating for us as researchers talking to partner organisations that IKEA works with, and then referring to togetherness, how they respond to those big challenges collaboratively, and they work on solutions collaboratively, and they take into considerations all the different perspectives. So, for IKEA, togetherness means we are in it together with the society, with our communities, with our partners, and they work from that, that perspective of this is not about workforce alone. This is about building societies in which we would like to live, in which we would like to function. So they feel like they have responsibility of creating a better environment in which we all are together.

Mark Scott  15:11

So you've worked with IKEA here in Australia, but you talk about the global impact that workers had with IKEA because, of course, it's a, it's a giant global firm.

Betina Szkudlarek  15:21

Well, our last project was a global project. So we have, I believe, investigated 14 markets, different international markets,

Mark Scott  15:32

With IKEA?

Betina Szkudlarek  15:33

With IKEA, yes. And it was it was fascinating study because we realised that the amount of commitment some of the markets had exactly to changing the narrative, how they would specifically focus on, on those group of refugees that would be in some way exposed to the, you know, highest or, or most more extreme discrimination. And they would focus by, for example, analysing media narratives and organising workshops for journalists about how to talk about refugees and how they might be using vocabulary that is not very constructive. So they really expanded their strategy to so many different elements of affecting public opinion because they thought we, providing employment is not enough, because what we could see is what we also read about in Australia. That you know visibly diverse person in you know behind the counter in our shops might be abused by, by someone just because of some diversity marker. So they realised we don't just provide employment, we need to create an environment in which this person can thrive and feel included, and feel that they belong.

Mark Scott  16:43

When you go into another firm, when you're doing your research, what are the tells for you? What are the signs that you're looking for that this organisation is committed to leadership and social cohesion?

Betina Szkudlarek  16:55

We are just starting the, the research on social cohesion, so I have to say I don't yet have full answers. I think for me, just the fact that they recognise that it matters, that it is an issue that affects their workforce, that they feel that people within their organisation actually personally feel the pressure of that increasing polarisation. That's the first sign, and that's what surprised us. It surprised me to see how many leaders feel that people are on a daily basis affected by everything that's happening around us. So I think just hearing that empathetic statement of how can we feel our people safe and included in here, and how can we make sure that our place contributes to something more positive, I can hear it in the first three minutes of a conversation.

Karyna  17:45

At first, I just started working at Kyiv Social as a waitress, as a section waitress. Then I also, when my English became a bit more confident, I started working at Sydney Swans Football Club. My English started like, being a bit better, and I just worked a lot. I just started do everything because I was really motivated to get more work, and I never said no. If they called me to cover someone, I was, I think I was always quite reliable person. And one day they just offered me to try being a restaurant supervisor, then restaurant manager, and now it's already almost three years since I started.

Mark Scott  18:54

I'm interested in how big a challenge, how big an issue refugee employment is. What are the challenges that refugees in Australia face to getting meaningful work and being able to make a contribution in the workplace?

Betina Szkudlarek  19:08

Unfortunately, when it comes to refugee employment, the challenges that people from a refugee background face are real, and ,and we have coined the term canvas selling to describe those challenges. Institutionally, there are of course, some of the legal requirements and arrangements around settlement. But on the organisational level, we know from our research that most employers, very many of them, operate on very superficial stereotypes and, and misconceptions around, around refugee resettlement. And those misconceptions fuel fear, fuel you know scepticism, and, and many employers are not even aware how skilled and, and diverse of a cohort that is. So we would a few years ago that was actually the first study we have ever done. We looked into perspective of employers who have hired previously refugees. And those who have never done so. And those who have hired, when we asked them across you know, multiple level of what would be challenging, rated every single category almost sometimes two, three times lower in terms of the challenge level than those who haven't. So people who have never hired a single person from a refugee background assumed everything will be so much more challenging.

Mark Scott  20:22

They anticipate the worst.

Betina Szkudlarek  20:23

Exactly.

Mark Scott  20:24

But the lived experience is, it's much better.

Betina Szkudlarek  20:27

Exactly. And the fascinating thing which we hear, and, and that's what I love talking about, Mark, is we would talk to someone who have hired one person from a refugee background, and they would tell us, "Oh my God, refugees are amazing. I wish you know, I engage in refugee employment earlier”. So there is this halo effect. The moment there is that personal contact, that personal interaction, suddenly their, their, their worldview is opening, and they see, “Oh my God, why was it was I so blinded”. And that one single experience then becomes this new reference point for the whole cohort of every single refugee that comes to Australia.

Mark Scott  21:04

And I imagine it's not just well, there's a skill level there that may have been underestimated, but there's a grit and a determination and a just being pleased to be meaningfully employed and part of a workplace. All of these attributes pay off over time for an employer.

Betina Szkudlarek  21:21

Yes, absolutely. And, and I think one of the things what we notice when we work in this space is that in many workplaces that decided to engage in refugee employment, local employees found a new meaning and a new purpose in work, because they realise, “oh my God, I've been living in my little bubble of struggling with my, you know, everyday challenges, and then I meet someone whose life I could never even comprehend”. So being able to be a part of this transformative journey to allow someone to build a new life, to, to find sense of security and stability, has been not only beneficial for the refugee and their family and their community, but actually for local employees who realise I'm actually a part of something bigger here.

Mark Scott  22:06

And therefore a driver of social cohesion.

Betina Szkudlarek  22:08

Absolutely.

Mark Scott  22:22

Given everything you're seeing right now and the work you're doing, are you optimistic or pessimistic on how we take on the social cohesion challenge over the next decade?

Betina Szkudlarek  22:32

I am optimistic. Otherwise, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. But I have to say, there is another interesting statistic that I really hope you know people can reflect upon, and in that particular statistics, we are way below the global average. We tend to be quite pessimistic. Only one in four Australians believe that the future generation will be better off, even though the, you know, economic debt data doesn't really support this level of pessimism. So there is something about our level of pessimism today that potentially fuels some of this, some of those fears, some of those reservations, some of those challenges. So maybe if we get a little bit more optimistic about where we are at, and about where the world is going, we might be more, you know, open to, to see the world as as, full of opportunities and how we can, you know, contribute to those opportunities.

Mark Scott  23:26

That's Professor Bettina Szkudlarek from the University of Sydney Business School. You also heard from Karyna, the manager at Kyiv Social. And if you want to learn more about how great teams work together, listen to our episode about collaboration.

Richard Harris  23:44

As a sweeping generalisation, we do seem to be living in times that are so polarised and divisive. Everyone's opinions seem to be you're either with me or against me, and there's no room for common ground. And wasn't it amazing in the midst of these sort of evolving times that people from all around the globe could come together and unite for this common purpose.

Mark Scott  24:08

You can listen to that episode of The Solutionists right now, and make sure you're following the show so you don't miss an episode. The Solutionists is a podcast from the University of Sydney, produced by Deadset Studios.

The Solutionists is a podcast from the University of Sydney, produced by Deadset Studios. Keep up to date with The Solutionists by following @sydney_uni on Facebook and Instagram, and @sydney.edu.au on Bluesky.

This episode was produced by Liam Riordan with sound design by Jeremy Wilmot. Supervising producer is Sarah Dabro. Executive editors are Kellie Riordan, Sladjana Rstic, and Mark Scott. Strategist is Ann Chesterman.

This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. For thousands of years, across innumerable generations, knowledge has been taught, shared and exchanged here. We pay respect to elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.